E14: David Park

Transcript

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0:00 Welcome to the Frankly Speaking podcast. Today I am joined by David Park, founder and CEO of Jenny AI. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. It was all pronounced correctly. The name, the startup. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, so David is a pretty hotshot founder. He has over a million users on his products already. Two million. Two million now. Wow. Jason Calakadakis from All In Podcast is one of his investors. I actually found him initially on Twitter. I don't remember what post he tweeted, but I thought it was insightful.

0:35 So I followed him. He messaged me and here we are. So welcome, David. Dude, this is crazy. I've seen your TikToks probably for like the last, I don't even know, for a while. And then when I saw you followed me, your Twitter username is completely different from your TikTok username. Yeah. I was like, who is, I've seen this guy's face, but I don't know. It's like some, is it like your Chinese name or something? I was like, who is this guy? And then, yeah. And then once I figured out it was you, I was like, okay, I have to DM this guy.

1:03 Yeah. So my Frank Nu handle was taken by some other random Frank Nu, I guess. And yeah, my Chinese name is what I use for a lot of stuff just because I can't get that unique handle everywhere. But if I ever become super rich, I'll buy out my handle everywhere. Yeah. I've tried to buy a few handles on Twitter as well. And it always ended catastrophically because I always post about my startup. So they think I'm like really rich. Yeah. Like, yeah, that's going to be $100,000. I'm like, dude, I don't have that money to buy a Twitter handle right now.

1:34 Yeah. It's hilarious. Do you see how Elon just took the X handle from some dude? Yeah. Yeah. I have mixed feelings about that. But I mean, it really sucks for that dude. I think we're all in agreeance. It really fucking sucks for that X dude. Yeah. I'm surprised he didn't just offer him like some pity money. Like it would have been better than nothing. Even like, I don't know, 10K, which is like literally nothing to him. And people still would have been upset at 10K, but I feel like less so. But I guess he doesn't care.

2:05 I mean, have you read his autobiography or his biography by Walter Isaacson, Elon's? Is that the most recent one? I read a previous one. I don't remember which one it was, though. It came out like, I think, two months ago. Oh, no, I haven't read that one. Well, he's famously like super mercurial about like cutting costs and like not wasting any money. So unfortunately, I think this X guy, he was he knew he could just get it for free. So he just decided to not add to the to his balance sheet with any more costs.

2:36 Yeah, that kind of tracks with all the marketing that he's done. I don't know how like legitimate it is, though, like because in his first biography, he also has this story where he's like building his rockets and like he can't get rockets for a reasonable price in America. So he goes to Russia. Yeah, he is like used old ass rockets and, you know, engineers everything himself. But like, so I used to think like, oh, man, this dude's like Tony Stark, right? And then like the more I kind of learned about him and most of it, honestly, was from like Twitter and Reddit.

3:05 They're like, oh, no, he's like, holy shit. Like, oh, this is like marketing propaganda. He like grew up rich, had a bunch of like emeralds in his pockets in New York or something like so like this entire persona that were sold or he sold, I guess. He was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. Pretty real, because he like fired the Pepper Potts equivalent of him. It was like his long term. Yeah. Oh, no, that was in the other biography. Yeah, I remember that. Like the craziest part was he was like she asked for a raise or something.

3:42 Yeah. He was like, let me absorb all of your job responsibilities for a week and then I'll see if I'll give you a raise. And he realized, oh, I could just do your job. And then I'm like, holy fuck. That was crazy to me. Like, I was thinking, you don't do that. No, you don't. I mean, I agree with you. I mean, the mythos of Elon Musk is now bigger than the human Elon Musk. But, you know, I think it's hard to disagree that he's like a really capable entrepreneur. Like the smartest people in the world who are like the best allocators of capital all want to back Elon Musk, which probably means that they know that he's a winner.

4:15 A winner. Yeah. Yeah. Regardless of all the like ethical implications, it's like you can't really argue that realistically, if you're wealthy or not already, like no one else could really have accomplished what he did. You know, obviously not a perfect person, very controversial in some ways. But I feel like it's somewhat hard not to be controversial these days. Yeah. It's, yeah, there's just people seem to be really addicted to outrage content and being upset and having the virtue signaling type of stuff online is, I don't know, super crazy.

4:50 Like getting more crazy these days than the past couple of years. It makes you feel alive, you know? It makes you feel alive when you feel like someone else, if some celebrity just looks really fucking stupid in your eyes, then it just kind of like elevates yourself. It's like, oh, man, these celebrities are so stupid. And then you can just parrot that on Twitter and on stories and kind of makes you feel better by yourself, which is kind of unfortunate. I think it's very similar to like, before it was like thoughts and prayers on Facebook.

5:18 And then it became like, oh, you know, change your profile picture to like this flag to whatever the current trending topic is. And now it's like, oh, make outrage content. Like not only do those things, but also make a video, calling them out or a tweet or like something. And then you get, you know, a lot of votes, upvotes or likes or hearts or whatever. Right. And you get that like dopamine hit and you're like, oh, this feels nice. Yeah. You immediately become like part of a tribe, right? You immediately become like accepted by the other people who are like have decided to make up their minds.

5:47 And yeah, it's pretty crazy. I have a theory, though, like the next generation, like not our generation, but the one maybe maybe the next network, like when they're like maybe the 10 year olds now won't have as much of cancel culture because their entire life is documented online and everyone is bound to say some like really questionable, terrible things. And they're like teens, whereas we, you know, most of ours is like hidden just because we did it. We had like T-Mobile razors. And so like those didn't really like track all of our stuff.

6:17 But hopefully it's a better time for them because you can't cancel anybody because everybody has like skeletons in their closet, like really visibly that you could see. Yeah, it's hilarious because everyone says like the Internet is forever. But like you said, we don't we didn't really experience that because most of our stuff is now they're extinct or just like was never recorded in the first place. Yeah. Yeah. Which is maybe good, you know, but kind of bad because now the few things we do find, it's like, holy shit, do you guys see his old messages when he was 16?

6:49 You know, it's like, I don't know, everyone sends really, you know, you're still learning at 16. You're kind of meant to mess up and fuck up at that time. It's weirder if you don't have like things that you learned from, I think, at that age. Yeah, it's like you repressed it all Ned Flanders style and blow up eventually. Right, right. I guess, first of all, let's talk more about Jenny AI, like what got you started on the concept? I've seen you've been working on this for a somewhat long time, it appears.

7:19 Or like I went on your LinkedIn and it said you were Holtan or something. And then this Jenny. Yeah. So, I mean, I've been always pretty interested. I feel like a canon event for a lot of entrepreneurs is they watch The Social Network, the movie. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I watched that on my, I think, eighth grade birthday, which means I was like 13, 14. And I thought that was so cool. I was like a nerd when you watch that movie. You think like, oh, this is like the apex of my coolness I could probably achieve, like in this movie, you know.

7:51 You don't really like visualize yourself as like, you know, the Marvel superhero or like the frat star or whatever. But like, you know, I really felt like, okay, I could be, you know, probably this smart in my lifetime of this social network, which is kind of weird because it's actually kind of like a tragic movie. But I guess I was so young, I didn't really, I just saw like the, like the adventure that they had. But, yeah. So, anyways, I started my first company when I was 16. What you're referring to is Altum, which I started in my freshman year of college.

8:23 And, yeah, I mean, I basically failed so many startups until Jenny AI, which I started four years ago. Even Jenny AI failed its first iterations. We started off as like an SEO tool, like a B2B tool. And that really failed to get traction. I don't know if you know of like Jasper AI, Copy AI. Yep. They like wiped the floor with me because one, I was like a snotty-nosed, like 21-year-old. And they were like 40-year-olds with a bunch of VC funding. And they just knew how distribution way better. But then once I lost to them, I kind of learned some of their playbook.

8:55 And then I was able to try again because there's a blue ocean in academia of like researchers and college students who wanted to, you know, write with AI. So, I was able to really try again. So, we pivoted away from B2B to B2C to these, to academia. And, yeah, I mean, it's been going really well. Right now, our niche is like graduates, PhDs, and master's students. And, yeah, I mean, essentially, like I said, we're at 2 million users. But, you know, for three years, we were stuck at less than probably like 10,000 users.

9:29 And it was only within the last 15 months we grew to 2 million users. And, you know, finally getting some semblance of success. Nice. Yeah, it sounds like that's a quite pretty good journey. And a lot of people underestimate the first couple of years. In your case, like almost like a decade where it's just not much going on. And then vertical growth and the hockey stick. And then what do you think really made the difference? Was it more like the niching down to the graduate students? And then that blew up.

10:01 And then was it also like your social media presence that did a lot of marketing? Was it more word of mouth, et cetera? Yeah, I mean, I wish there was one, like, sexy answer. I probably could make up a sexy answer of, like, we solved this one key thing. And this trick is what you need to write. But, like, you know, there are probably small things I picked up from my first startup, I feel, when I was 16 years old. All the way up until, you know, my latest iteration of Jenny, where all the things just started to click.

10:32 And I do think it's kind of holistic where, yeah, I mean, I do think that it's not just, you can't just do one thing correctly. Unless you're doing it at, like, the 1% level of, like, expert level. But, you know, it wasn't like we were doing that. It was just we started to talk more to users. We started to actually cut out all the superfluous features in our product. We started to be more lean. Just, like, really basic things that we started to do correctly. And, yeah, I guess the big thing, actually, if I had to pick one, is probably more just, going back to, like, the social network, you know, when I watched that movie, I thought I was the next Mark Zuckerberg.

11:22 I thought, like, oh, I'm a founder. I'm going to make a billion-dollar company. But it turns out, like, almost all of my decisions were wrong. Like, anything based on my gut was just kind of incorrect. Almost always. And then even if I go and I talk and I listen to users, they're still wrong some percentage of the time. Like, some percent of it is still wrong. But at the very least, it trended in the right direction. So it would be, like, somewhat right. And then I would continue to talk to users. And then I would correct it, correct it, correct it.

11:50 And then we'd eventually make something that users actually like to use. So, yeah, I would say a lot of it has to do with kind of removing your own ego, I would say. Which sucks because, like, I feel like entrepreneurship attracts people with large egos. It takes someone with a very large ego to, like, get punched in the face, like, literally every single day. And then still wake up and be like, I'm going to make a billion-dollar company. But in order to also succeed, you need to have the inverse of that.

12:17 It's, like, a beautiful, like, dichotomy of, like, you have to be, you have to really believe in yourself. But you have to also, like, really not take yourself seriously and just think, how can I make the best product? How can I listen to my users? So, yeah, I would say those are some takeaways. Yeah, so some common themes I heard throughout what you said and what I've read elsewhere is really just getting user feedback, iteration. And also, like you said, it's not one big thing, but a lot of small things that you've done throughout all the previous experiences.

12:48 And it adds up. And after, like, the continual iteration, at some point, the, like, amalgamation of all the experiences and benefits just turns into something that people want to use. No, I mean, that's, like, can we, like, deepfig your answer onto my voice? Because that was, like, way more succinct than whatever the fuck I just said. So, like, let's just roll with that. Yeah, I mean, speaking of, like, deepfigs and stuff, I've seen OpenAI, like, add more and more and more features. Like, one of the huge things that a lot of companies wanted initially when they saw this, they're like, all right, how do we train these models on our own internal data so we can read our documents, summarize internal training, all the, like, stuff that they don't actually want the training data to be based off of.

13:33 Yeah. They want their personalized OpenAI. So, a lot of people were trying to make that. And then I think in the past week, OpenAI just released something. It's like, hey, we're letting you do this now. You know, upload a document. You can do this. Yeah. Are you worried that, I guess, they're going to eat your lunch? So, like, similar to, like, how Amazon kind of, like, compares products that are doing well. They're just like, oh, you know, this product's selling well because they have all the data. Right, right.

13:56 Right. They have all the data. And they're like, okay, we'll just undercut them, kill them. And then, you know, once they're dead, we'll just sell our own version. Yeah. So, I guess if, like, you know, GPT-4 access is ever cut off, is that still, like, a kind of, like, a central point to your startup and potentially, like, a lot of the other startups in the past year? Or do you think that eventually you might be able to, like, I don't know, replace it with an open source model, like, like, a llama or something like that?

14:20 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I hear two questions. So, I'll start with the first thing of, like, am I afraid that, it sounds like the questions are, am I ever afraid OpenAI is going to cut off access? And if it does, what will happen to us? And the other one is, like, am I afraid OpenAI will ever create a, like, they'll ever compete with us? I guess the one I think about more is the competition part. Like, I will say it's not outside the realm of possibilities where OpenAI maybe makes, like, a chat GPT. Like, they go out of chat and they create some, like, editor and they create some, like, document where it has AI-first capabilities.

15:00 But, you know, I feel like one competitive or one moat that we have that isn't really obvious is that we're going after, like, academia. Like, there's still a lot of journals where they don't accept AI-written content or it's kind of ambiguous what AI-written content. And definitely in college, right? It's case by case. Some classes allow AI content. Some classes don't. And so being in kind of that legal gray area, initially, it might seem kind of off-putting and it might scare a founder, I think. But actually, being in that gray area is, like, one of the safest places to be because you know that these larger incumbents are more scared of, like, doubling down and, like, going – getting – because bad PR for us, you know, we can only go down to zero.

15:44 And, like, sure, we make, like, some money now, but it's definitely not nearly as painful as, like, Google or, you know, Microsoft Word or, you know, OpenAI. If they start being labeled as, like, a cheating company or they're hurting the intelligence of, you know, students, these sorts of things can really affect stock prices. They can affect, like, internal morale. Like, so I actually think that insulates us a lot, that moving in the gray area. And there's a lot of examples of, like, I think, like, Uber, Airbnb, Coinbase, like, they were also able to kind of ride in that.

16:17 They were building, like, the playbook. They were building the legislation as they were kind of growing, which protected them as well. So – but that isn't to say that I think that competition isn't something that I think about or something that I'm scared of. Or not scared of, something that I'm mindful of. But I just don't think that it's something in the near future. But watch – but life is very funny. So watch this podcast come out and then I open it and immediately release, like – that'd be pretty awesome as well.

16:46 But, yeah. And then the other thing is we have experimented with other models as well. I won't lie. I would say if they cut off, like, GPT 3.5 access, I don't think that'd be a problem because I think we could get to – like, there are other alternatives out there where we could get, like, pretty similar results, I think. But GPT-4 is probably one of the leading models right now. That would probably be a little more of a headache. But with enough funding and with enough time, I think that also wouldn't be an issue.

17:15 We also – we were – before GPT-4 came out, we were, like, deploying – we deployed our own model. And we were, like, thinking of sponsoring a PhD student at our alma mater, UCSD. But the conclusion we came down to was, like, OpenAI is just a monster. They have all the talent. They have more money than God. Even if we were somehow able to get parity with GPT-4, once GPT-5 comes out, like, all the work we put in would just get – it would just be wasted. Because, yeah, I mean, it's – we're, like, a nine-person team.

17:51 Many of us, like, this is some of our first jobs. So it's unclear if we could, like, beat OpenAI at their game of creating these humongous and, like, miraculous LLFs. Yeah, that makes sense. And then to follow up a bit on something that you mentioned about legislation. So, like, you're protected by great area. But at the same time, it also seems like a lot of the tech giants are now trying to kind of pull up the ladder behind them by introducing new legislation to make it financially unlikely for startups to kind of chase after them.

18:24 So you mentioned how, like, already it was quite unlikely for a small team to compete just based on their resources alone. But now, you know, them in combination with Microsoft, Google, kind of the incumbent tech giants have been talking to Congress. They're trying to introduce legislation that will effectively cripple a lot of AI development. It always sounds so good, right? They're like, oh, we need this legislation for AI safety. And, like, the only things that, like – the only companies that, like, fulfill this requirement happen to be the people that's, like, paying the most money to the government.

18:55 Yeah, man, I mean, at some point, like, if I were talking to a VC, I would probably have some, like, magic answer of, like, but actually – and then flip it on its head. But, no, that kind of sucks. Like, I actually don't know. The best we could do is, like, you know, I think that the entire world is going to be AI assisted. So I think that what I'm doing is pretty interesting. I think that the whole entire education system is probably going to change. It's going to be forced to change. I think that's kind of exciting to be on the other side of that.

19:24 And, yeah, so I'm going to keep doing what we're doing, and we'll see how that goes. But, yeah, you're totally right. I mean, I noticed it as well. Like, regulatory capture is, like – I mean, it's kind of like the playbook, right? You get as big as you can. You become a monopoly. You try to, like, rewrite it so nobody else can compete with you. And then you just kind of coast and become the biggest company. Like, you know, it's, like, it's not fun. But it's also not new. I find it really interesting that they acted so quickly on this front just because when you look at the crypto industry being regulated, it's taken forever.

20:01 Like, it's been, like, a decade, and there hasn't been, like, concrete answers. And with, like, Coinbase is really the only company pushing for answers in any manner. I think they actually sued the government, one of the – I forget which branch or, like, what division. But, like, hey, like, give us some answers. Like, we want to comply. Dude, yeah. It's messed up. And it wasn't – because I think Sam Bankman-Fried is, like, the second highest donor ever to the U.S. government, I think. On paper. With a paper trail, yeah.

20:30 Yeah, yeah. True. But, yeah, and despite SPF's all that money, like, it doesn't seem like we got that many answers. And – Well, I think his play was that he was trying to do regulatory capture as well, but for himself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then, you know, L kind of fell apart. He actually just got convicted – it was, like, one of the shortest trials ever. It was, like, 30 minutes in and out. Jury's, like, guilty on everything. He got convicted on all counts, too. Yeah, yeah. It was, like, every single one, which was fucking – he's going to be in jail until, like – It's effectively a life sentence.

21:04 It's, like, over 100 years altogether. Crazy. Which I think a lot of other people were surprised about because everyone was, like, oh, you know, government's corrupt. He donated all this money. He's going to be fine. Yeah. But then, I guess the other side of it, people were saying, like, well, it's not just, like, donating, giving people money. It's, like, also about the leverage. Like, what blackmail do you have on them? And I just finished watching Succession, so I was thinking, like, oh, that's kind of an interesting take.

21:29 Wait, is that actually what happens? Wait, can you educate me on that? Do, like, rich, powerful people, like, is there actually evidence of them having blackmail on these government officials? I mean, the most popular and infamous cases, Donald Trump in Russia, right? Like, the theory is that he went over to Russia, got honey trapped, and, you know, they recorded him. I totally believe that, too. I totally believe that, too. I believe it, too. Like, it's an extremely plausible story. Like, I think a lot of times when people, you know, these are conspiracy theories.

21:58 Like, that sounds like something he would do. That sounds like something Russia would do. It would make sense why he was so buddy-buddy with Putin during his presidency. And so, like, you know, that's just a high-profile case, but I'm sure that kind of stuff, like, all these politicians have dirt on each other. And, like, the main thing preventing them from coming out with it is, like, they also have dirt on themselves. And even with, like, the Epstein case, which was never resolved, and, like, the entire American peoples were all like, hey, release the list, release the list.

22:26 And they're like, nope, we're not going to release the list. It's just, like, you know, these skeletons, like, except for the rich and powerful, it's not the skeletons. It's, like, giant, behemoth dinosaur bones in their closets that, you know, we'll never see. But I feel like it's – this is really simplified, but I saw this, like, chart where it shows, like, here's how people behave when you're, like, extremely poor, like, middle class and well-off. And then the well-off section and the extremely poor section still – they share a lot of parallels in the sense that, like, who you know is one of the most important, but for different reasons.

23:02 So when, like, you're really poor, you need to know people just to survive. Like, you need to borrow someone's lawnmower, get your neighbor to babysit the kids, you know, take someone's car for a job interview, and your neighborhood becomes, like, an extension as part of your resources. Right. When you're really wealthy, you don't need any of that, but you also don't care about your career as much because, like, if you come from wealth or, like, a family money, then it's like, okay, well, do you know, like, Beyonce?

23:29 Are you friends with, like, I don't know, LeBron? You've been on Jeff Bezos' second mega yacht. That's where all the business dealings occur. Exactly. So it's, like, at that point, you know, I don't know anyone in that wealth category. Like, I know some billionaires on paper who haven't been able – or not liquid, but, like, I don't know any actual rich people in the upper echelon of, like – I mean, you're probably the closest person because you have a semi-connection to Jason, but I don't even think he's a billionaire.

23:57 I think he's – He's a – he's famously a centi-millionaire. Yeah, a centi-millionaire. He calls himself a centi-millionaire. Out of the other three members who are billionaires on this podcast. I don't know if Sachs – is Sachs a billionaire? I'm not entirely sure. I think in terms of wealth, Tramath is the wealthiest by far. And then it goes Sachs and Freeberg are probably somewhat equal. And then Jason – I mean, it's – I think it's both funny and somewhat unnecessary, but, like, that they shit on Jason for being the poorest.

24:27 But it's not, like, them having wealth matters a whole lot. Like, they're at the stage where it's, like, gaining more wealth to gain it, I guess. So, I don't know.

24:38 Yeah, yeah, no, I do think that Jason is – like, his Uber story is pretty crazy where he joined the angel round of Uber and he got, like, a 4,000x return on his money. But, yeah, I do respect Jason as well because he's, like – he was an entrepreneur before he was an investor. So, he's, like, an operator and a builder and an investor. Whereas, yeah, I mean, like, if we just go more generally into investors, like, there are some investors that have – I've never built startups before. And I think that of the ones I've interacted with, I'm not as big of a fan of them, generally.

25:17 Yeah, I guess, like, in terms of the returns for all of their funds, because, like, most – Sachs has a fund, Jason has a fund. I think Chamath has a fund as well. I don't know if Freeberg actually has a fund or if he just builds companies. But it doesn't – I think he invests. I don't know if he has a fund, but I think he invests. Yeah, he invests, like, his personal money, but it's not like – he doesn't, like, hire people. And it's not, like, his main thing. Whereas, like, the other three, it feels like that's their main thing at this point.

25:44 Right. And it doesn't seem like, as far as I know, any of them are doing that well with their investments. Like, Freeberg actually made a comment. He's like, oh, yeah, you know, you tally up all my investments. I made, like, pretty much the same as a B500 over the past decade or whatever. And these are people who have access to, like, all the deals, like, the Uber-esque deals. Yeah. Like, if they want a deal, they could probably get in. Right. So, I guess – I don't know. At that point, it's, like, kind of ties back into what you said earlier, but, like, hubris of, like, getting rid of your ego.

26:16 But I still think that, like, especially for people who've been on top for so long, who've done so well in their careers, the mindset is always, like, oh, well, you know, this is another thing that I'll gain expertise in and I'll do really well. But the results have shown that it hasn't been great, to my knowledge. Like, I don't know what their personal – their books look like on the internals, but from, like, tech getting destroyed, both public and private, much more so in the past year, effectively.

26:46 So, I'd be surprised to see if they have been outperforming. Yeah. I mean, I don't know who – I think Munger recently was on a podcast and was saying, like, VC is basically just, like, gambling. Yeah. And it's, like, pretty glorified, which, you know, as someone who's been rejected by many VCs, that's, like, makes me somewhat happy to hear that they don't really know what they're doing. Obviously, there are probably some firms that know what they're doing, like Sequoia or Andreessen Horowitz. Although, lately, you know, it's not entirely sure if lately they're doing that well, but it seems like they have some track record of knowing how to make smart investments.

27:25 But, yeah, I think the funny thing is, like, Chamath had, like – he once compared his returns in one of his, like, Shepard or Lowe's. Like, if we're talking about a little bit of ego, Chamath definitely has – but, like, at the same time, Chamath was the brain behind Facebook's growth, getting to, like, a billion users. And I don't want to underplay that either. You know, it's easy to kind of, like – he's made his money. He's now chilling. He's in Italy all the time with his beautiful wife, and, like, he's having – he's just drinking wine and gambling.

27:58 So, it's unclear whether he still has that, like, fire. But when he did have that fire, he was, like, pretty scary. He was able to make Facebook, like, one of the fastest-growing startups in history, which is pretty nuts. Yeah, so, like, a bit more, I guess, background Chamath for listeners slash viewers. He was a really early employee at Facebook. He effectively founded the data science team. He kind of created data science, what it is today, right? That's his claim. I don't know how true that is, but that is his claim.

28:28 And then he was also a really early investor in Bitcoin, one of the very early people to kind of call that being a big thing. And, yeah, he's the wealthiest person on the pod, and was actually the original reason I even tuned in in the first place. Like, I didn't know any of the other guys. Right. And so, like, for all the crap that he gets and all the, like, statements that he makes on Twitter where he gets kind of dunked on to, like, the one that David was referring to. He's like, oh, yeah, comparing my fund to Buffett's.

28:56 And people were like, dude. Because it wasn't quite – He don't do it no more. He doesn't do it anymore. Yeah, because he got wrecked. Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, he's definitely done a lot of great things. And he also has made some pretty outlandish statements. I think the above the line, below the line thing was pretty big for a while during the whole Ukraine thing. Yeah. But, yeah, I mean – I disagree with that statement. But at the same time, I kind of, like – the fact that those statements exist kind of shows that these people are just, like – they genuinely just get together and just talk shit.

29:32 And they just talk, like, what's really on their mind. And I think that's what Chamath really believes. And it's pretty bad the way he phrased it. You know, but I do think we miss, like – like, there's too much varnish and there's too much, like, carefully crafted things, like, in terms of media right now. And I do feel like the All In podcast is – it genuinely feels like they could – like, at any given week, they could say something that's just, like, really – that's actually somewhat – like, that's actually kind of edgy.

30:02 And actually could be outrageous, but something that they actually believe in, maybe needs to be heard. In that case, I think he shouldn't have said that. But, like, there's some cases where, like, they say something that maybe mainstream media, like, is too afraid to kind of dive into, which I think is nice. Yeah. I feel like from that point onwards, all the members have been a lot more guarded and more resourced. Oh, you think so? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Like, I think – and that was also kind of where they started a lot of their own growth for that podcast.

30:30 Like, I think that was somewhat of a turning point where they were starting to gain steam and become, like, really one of the top podcasts in the world. And now I think they're kind of cemently, you know, top two or three in terms of, like, business, tech, political stuff. But at that point – I feel like the podcasts before that point were a bit more candid, whereas now it's, like, they've received so much blowback from that one. And then even, like, Saks getting a lot of pushback for a lot of his statements.

30:58 And now he effectively has, like, a team who does the research for him. And he'll, like, show all the research. And, like, each one of his statements he makes, he has so much, like, supporting history and facts. You can't listen to the podcast anymore, right? Because it's always, like, throw up that graph. And then, like, if you're listening, you're like, fuck. Yeah, like, what is going on? Yeah, I don't know what's happening. Yeah, so it's – I agree with you. I really enjoyed the show in the past because I felt like there was a lot of candor.

31:22 There was a lot of things. And, like, you know, these are rich dudes who were, like, even if they cancel, who cares, really? Because worst thing, they go back to their lives doing their VC stuff. Right. But, yeah, I do feel like they have a certain, like, influence in Washington now because so many people listen and so many official, like, rich and important people listen to it. But I also think that there is, like you kind of said, previously there wasn't a veneer. I feel like there definitely is one now.

31:48 Like, it's not – there's, like, more stuff. That's fair. I think that's fair, yeah. And, yeah, I guess that does suck. I mean, like, it sounds like you're pretty disappointed by the veneer thing as well. So do you, like, not listen or not like it as much anymore? I don't listen as often anymore. Like, I'll maybe tune in sometimes when I'm really bored and thinking, like, okay, I haven't seen it all in for a bit. And I'll skip through, like, the parts that I'm somewhat interested in. But, like, yeah, I don't know.

32:16 I feel like they kind of – it almost peaked with that controversy in my mind. Damn. But, you know, by the numbers, they're still doing, obviously, much better than they were before. But I guess, like, for me, I think the part that I enjoyed the most was, like, you said them speaking their minds. And, like, when Tremont said that, maybe he didn't phrase it in the best way. But, you know, it was obvious that's what he felt. Yeah. Like, it was his real true feelings. Yeah. I do think – it kind of, like – I think it's a reason why people like Joe Rogan a lot.

32:49 So even though he's not, like, the most informed person, he just says stuff, like, very clearly, like, without – It's just refreshing, right? Right. It's just kind of refreshing to hear that. Right. Like, with all the BS, right? Like, everyone in media, it's, like, so much BS. And I think, kind of transitioning a bit, it's interesting to see the propaganda and, like, how tales get spun in the different, like, hemispheres of the world. So, like, in the West, I mean, I think most people at this point know there's, like, a certain level of propaganda in the news.

33:20 And then in Europe, like, the news is quite a bit different. And then Chinese news or a lot of Asian news, which people don't typically have access to over here because, like, language barrier and why would they even look over there, also is, like, very different. And, like, I have relatives who are still in China, grandparents or parents, I guess, who, like, listen to a lot of more, like, Asian news or just global news. And it's really interesting to see the kind of stuff that gets reported on and, like, the slant that the article has and even how, like, reporting now, like, they're in such a race to be breaking news that they'll, like, cite tweets or, like, just completely false information.

33:59 But they're, like, oh, shoot, this other news organization, they just published this article. We got to go. Like, we got to get off this. Like, we can't be falling behind. And it's kind of crazy. Yeah, incentives are really weird, right? Like, if, like, I was thinking about the other day, I was wondering, like, how can you even fix the news? How can you fix, like, how can you fix those incentives? Where, like, if the incentive is always to drive the most traffic, drive the most clicks, then you're always going to be, one, to be engaging in that behavior of, like, one, it has to be breaking.

34:28 And, two, you want to be getting the most salacious things out. Right. So if it's breaking and salacious, that combination is pretty dangerous because a lot of times it's just going to be wrong. Like, later down the line. But if you don't engage in that, then you will definitely just have less subscriptions. And, like, news organizations are already dying. Like, they're not really able to monetize properly anymore because there's just abundance of information for free everywhere. And so if you don't engage in that, you'll accelerate your own demise even faster.

35:00 So I don't even know, like, what the solution to that is, which is kind of sad. Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's no even solution here. It's just a comment of, like, it's just kind of sad. I don't know how to fix that. Yeah, I don't think it'll ever be fixed, really. Just, like, unless you fix human behavior or psychology itself, it's, like, that's always going to be a thing driving eyeballs. And even, like, when you look at the most popular streamers in the world, it's, like, iShowSpeed, Aiden Ross. Like, their appeal is because they're so outrageous.

35:31 And to, like, the younger audience, like, that's what they want. Like, they're, like, this generation's Logan Paul. Like, Logan Paul used to be that guy. Right. But now he's kind of older, so it can't really be that guy anymore. It's, like, getting weird because he's a dude in his 30s who's appealing to, you know, young teens. Like, that doesn't work. So it's, like, you need a new generation of young teens who... And I don't know who was Logan Paul before him. Maybe, like... I don't know. It's probably, like, who was before Logan Paul.

35:57 Maybe, like, maybe before YouTube. Maybe, like, the Paris Hiltons, the Lindsay Lohans. I don't know. I don't even know. Yeah, it's, like, social media wasn't really much of a thing before then, I guess. So, like, there wasn't really a chance for anyone to be that. Yeah. But... On that comment of just, like, social media, it's also weird, too. Like, if you look at Mr. Beast's thumbnails or, like, Mr. Beast's videos, like, this guy is, like, probably the world's foremost leading expert on, like, thumbnails.

36:26 And what it's devolved to is just, like, a super spray-painted, like, his face going, like, just, like, a bewildered face. And, yeah, I mean, that's, like, that is the gold standard. That is the best thumbnail you could possibly make in the world. And it's just, like, a clickbait, you know, like, crazy death trap or, like, a mega, mega, mega yacht or a mansion in Mississippi going, like, just really surprised by it. And, yeah, I mean, theoretically, everybody should be doing that, right? Everybody should be making, like, the craziest thumbnail they could and then just, like, acting like their mind is literally being fucking blown by the thumbnail.

37:04 And then that's kind of a weird world to live in where, like, it's all thumbnails look like that. And, yeah. I don't know. Are we getting old? I feel like we're just not making commentary on, like, how shitty. Should we talk about some positive stuff? Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because, like, even Mr. Beast is, like, has a controversial side now where people are like, oh, it's, like, exploitation content. You're exploiting the poor. You're exploiting the blood. And I think it's, like, well, that is technically true.

37:30 Like, he's still technically helping people, though, right? It's, like, yeah, he's getting some personal benefit, but so are these people being helped. It's, like. Oh, yeah. I mean, and even if not, like, there were always shows, like, Fear Factor or Survivor where, like, there were always kind of exploitation of, like, people's, like, emotions and things on the line that they either get or don't get. And, you know, Mr. Beast is a one-man production company. He's not, like, CBS. And he was able to kind of build this empire.

37:57 And so now he's getting all this flack when, you know, for all these much larger corporations, they're somehow not really being judged on the same level just because they don't feel like they're friends with the CEO of that corporate. But they feel like, oh, I see Mr. Beast all the time. I feel like I know him enough to critique these things of him and, like, kind of speak to him in, like, a more candid way. And it's, like, I guess that's helped him a lot with his growth because, you know, people watch him religiously but also kind of, I think, is biting him now where they're just really loose with, like, just saying shit to Mr. Beast now.

38:31 Yeah. I think at some point he's going to have to step away from an on-camera role because, like, he's at the point where he does have an entire company underneath him and who's doing all this stuff. And it's, like, it doesn't actually need to be him. It's not like he adds a ton of personality to his videos. He's more just, like, hey, I'm the face and I'm explaining the rules and stuff. But, like, he could easily hire or even promote one of the existing people who are already on there upwards and more like a host or even, like, switching each of them up and seeing who does well.

39:00 Yeah. But I'd be kind of surprised if he continues to do it because, like, I guess I'm trying to think, like, other than him, the vanity factor of him being able to be there.

39:14 Oh, did you ever watch his brother's channel? That kind of, like, was a mini version of him? Oh, it's technically his older brother. I've never seen his older brother. I didn't even know he had an older brother. So, basically, he, like, set him up with his own channel and he was just doing, like, the almost exact same type of videos. And even the crew was similar. It was, like, Chandler's brother was part of his, like, cast. Holy shit. It's like a multiverse kind of Mr. Beast. I mean, it was, like, the B team, right?

39:42 You got, like, an A team, Mr. Beast, and then, like, B team. This is, like, the spinoff show. Exactly. For the people who really love the main show. It's like the Gen V of the boys kind of. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It did well by, like, objective measures. Like, I think he had a couple million subs. Each video was getting, like, a couple hundred thousand, maybe, like, low millions. But I think that, like, being overshadowed aspect caused him to just quit that thing entirely. So, even though, like, if any regular person reached that level of fame with their own videos, they'd be like, oh, this is awesome.

40:12 But because his younger brother is Mr. Beast, he's like, oh, this sucks. Like, my life sucks. I can't do this. Right. Yeah, I mean, it's, like, like, comparing yourself to somebody else. Like, even Mr. Beast, I think, like, suffers from his own success. I think there was at one point where, like, he measures his success based on, like, is his video, like, on, like, his past 10 videos average. Like, is this the higher than the average of his past 10 videos or something? And I think there was one point where, like, his last 10 videos were, like, the highest, the best performing videos of all time.

40:48 So, like, in order for his next video to beat his average, he would have to be, like, it would have to be one of the, like, fastest videos to, like, 10 million views or something in history. And so, you know, it's got to be, I mean, tying it back, like, Logan Paul kind of suffered from that as well because he daily vlogged, right? Like, he daily vlogged, every day had to be an insane day, which forces you to do, like, which forces you to find the craziest thing you could do at short notice, fly to countries.

41:16 And, unfortunately, one of the countries he flew to is Japan. And, like, he was forced to, like, you know, he saw something outrageous and crazy. And then he was forced to outdo his yesterday self, who was, and that yesterday was forced to outdo the day before. And, like, it just culminated into him just, like, being in this mindset of being open to filming a dead body and putting it on YouTube, which is, like, if you say the sentence out loud, obviously it's fucking preposterous. Right, but, like, you know, Logan Paul isn't, he seems to be a normal human being, like, otherwise.

41:48 So, I think, actually, my controversial take is, like, I think many people, oh, sorry, I don't think everyone would do that if they were in Logan Paul's position. But I think more people than you would think would maybe be pushed to do things that currently we think are outside of our comfort zones. But when you're in that mindset of, like, got to beat, got to keep setting records, got to keep a new PR every single day, I think you'd be surprised at what you'd be willing to do to kind of do that. Yeah, and in that same line, I think a lot of people, they love to virtue signal, they love that feeling, that dopamine, but they don't really take the time to feel any empathy for the actions of others.

42:30 And, like you said, a lot of these actions are probably bad or, like. Oh, yeah, I don't support it, let's not get canceled. You don't support Logan Paul's decision, but, yeah. Definitely detestable, but it's, like, I think no one, most people, anyway, are not, like, the villain of their story. Like, you judge everyone else by their actions, but you judge yourself by your intentions. Exactly. So, it's, like, like you said, there is a path where, you know, in his shoes, you might have done the same things.

42:58 Everyone wants to tell themselves that they would not have, but it's, like, a Stanford prison experiment. And, like, stuff like that. I think that was kind of debunked, but, like, I think the original thing kind of stands. Right. The theory, like, kind of makes sense. It's, like, you know, once you're given this power and once it's easy to say no and, like, a lot of these systems in place. And even looking at, like, the cop and justice system in the U.S. It's, like, there's a lot of bad cops and they're, like, oh, you know, they're all rotten, blah, blah, blah.

43:29 And it's, like, well, if you were a cop and you're trying to go in the system and fix things, like, you'd probably get fired. Like, you have no idea how that system is set up and how it got to be the way it was. It's, like, it's really easy to make a snap judgment without knowing any of it. Yeah. But, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I guess, like, speaking on, trying to speak of more positive things. Let's do it. I feel like each of the positive things that I just thought about also have, like, a slight negative twist depending on who you are.

43:57 But, like, I guess that's everything these days. So, like, just kind of bring it back to more, like, AI stuff. And, like, I think that people who are in a lot of the creative fields are going to get wrecked, like, horribly, horribly wrecked in the next couple of years. Wait, how is this positive? Well, so the positive side, I led with the negative. The positive side is it's going to be a lot easier for people to be entrepreneurial. So I think that a lot of these AI-assisted tools will allow people to essentially be, like, not one man, but, like, you know, a really small team and make a fairly robust product that's desired by a lot of people.

44:36 So, like, even, like, making, like, a small indie game. Before, you would need, like, artists and music composers and graphic designers and UI people and programmers and everything. And now you could, it'll still take a really, really long time, but feasibly you could do that with one person in, like, a fraction of the time. Or maybe you want to write a book. You want to make a picture book or something. Like, you can even get it to generate the script, to generate the pictures and maybe some fine-tuning.

45:04 And I think that it's, like, a lot of these jobs will still exist, probably at reduced rates, but then it'll free them up to do other, potentially more lucrative things. I don't know, it's hard to say. I guess it's, like, you know, there's kind of two paths the world can go down, or one leads to, like, a Star Trek utopia, unlimited energy. We become a federation and go colonize the stars. And the other one is more like a Star Wars-type fascist regime where, you know, things don't go as well. But, I don't know, I think with a lot of the technology advancing the way it is, and that with, like, the fusion energy and just renewables getting a lot of traction, you know, I feel like...

45:52 I think the positive is the consumer wins, right? The consumer will now win way more because it'll be easier to edit videos to the high bar of, like, your favorite YouTubers with AI assistants. You don't need, like, their 10-person production team or, like, their world-class editor because an AI can just, like, learn their editing style and then chop up your video for you. I think it'll be easier to, like, come up with, like, script ideas with, like, ChatGPT, especially if you, like, fine-tune it based upon, like, your style and your twist.

46:23 And, yeah, I think the floor is just going to be, like... A lot higher. Yeah, a lot higher. And that's going to be good because, you know, it's just going to increase competition. They'll probably just, like... Yeah. And for startups, too. Like, I feel like small, really small startup teams can now tackle pretty big, like, pretty big pain points without needing, you know, like, without even needing an office. You could do it fully remote, you could just build an MVP, raise some money, and then basically do the work of, like, what would previously would take, like, 10x the size of your team and now do it in a comparable amount of time.

47:07 And I think that's, like, really scary for incumbents. You know, anytime I talk to, like, any public company or, like, I'm always pretty disappointed with, like, these larger companies because they move, like, at, you know, and it's kind of memed on, like, oh, startups move fast and big companies move slow. But, like, they actually move so ridiculously slow and they have so much bureaucracy that it's so much more exciting to work on a small startup. And I think that's, like, it used to be kind of ridiculous to think that a small startup could, like, beat a larger, much better funded company.

47:42 But just by virtue of being smaller and being, like, able to, like, iterate way fast, like, having iterative cycles, like, potentially 100x faster or maybe 1,000x faster, like, that is not something that you want to look over. And AI obviously just accelerates that even more. Yeah. And I think you've captured two of the biggest points. And one is, like, the consumer wins. So, you know, in the case of Jenny AI, if you're a graduate student, you're in academia, you can write your papers much more effectively.

48:11 Or even, like, in your day-to-day life, like, I actually go to ChatGPT now a lot more often than Google sometimes because, like, say I want to make, like, recipes for something. Because SEO is completely fucked on Google. All the results you get are trash. And they're, like, you don't even find the information that you want. And now they're trying to monetize even more heavily. And it's, like, you can get two, three, maybe four ads before, like, a legitimate search result. And it's... It's disgusting. It's disgusting.

48:38 You've seen my latest tweet. It's actually gross. Like, there are competitors bidding on Jenny AI. They'll pay for, like, a sponsored post. And they'll make their link just look like Jenny. Their link just says Jenny AI, like, AI writing assistance. But their site is just not Jenny. And I know for a fact that, like, you know, there are people just clicking on it thinking it's Jenny, going to them, subscribing. And it's, like, I've... We've reported that ad so many times because it's against their terms of service.

49:09 But it's just not being, like, taken seriously. And I just feel bad because this is just one anecdotal case. I'm sure this is happening, like, all the time. Of, like, these sponsored posts are just... They're not really what the user wants. In this case, it's literally not what they wanted. They typed Jenny AI. They wanted Jenny. And they get taken to somewhere else. And, you know, I'm sure this is happening, like, to some degree. Maybe even more severe. Like, at least this tool is also an education, an ed tech tool.

49:37 But there are probably some cases where, like, for example, my buddy, he runs something called Excel Formula Bot, which is, like, an AI that helps you with Excel. But Timu is bidding on it because it has Formula Bot in it. So they're selling, like, breast milk formula. And they're, like, it's, like, formula, like, selling. That's the sponsored post. So imagine, like, you hear about Excel Formula Bot. Maybe you don't know much about it. You click the Timu link. And now you're, as a user, you're just, like, what a terrible experience.

50:04 You're just, like, super confused. You're now wondering whether you need to buy this baby formula or not. Is this what your friend was talking about? Probably not. You have to go back. You wasted some time. And it's just terrible. So, yeah. Sorry. Continue. I don't want to interrupt you. Continue. But, like, it's fucked right now with Google. No, I mean, you completely hit the nail on the head. And I think it's, like, if you know someone within the company, they might be able to help you out. But going through the normal support channels, like, there's no way.

50:29 Yeah. Like, good luck. Which is funny because, like, one time I had a Twitter handle hacked. And, you know, I tried going through all these normal support measures. And then I literally just contacted my friend who worked at Twitter. I'm, like, dude, can you help me out? Yeah. And, like, I got the account back immediately. And it's just, like, I don't know. It's. It's a nepotism, man. It's. The world runs on that kind of, man. It does. It does. It actually does. Dude, tying back to, like, what we were saying earlier about when you're really poor or really rich, it's just about who you know.

51:00 Yep. You know, back in the day, the most important thing, before ChatGPT, there was GPT-3. And GPT-3 was, like, possibly one of the most, like, the most powerful tech you could get. But you could only get it if you knew someone at OpenAI. And so, you know, we were pretty, we were working on this tech. We were working in this field for so long. And we just couldn't get it until I called one of my friends who was connected with somebody in OpenAI, and that got us GPT-3. And I think without hyperbole, just that one phone call was probably worth, like, a million dollars.

51:37 Like, just getting GPT-3 was worth a million dollars. And there's no, like, there's no form you could fill out. There's no, like, way you could kind of email the right person. Well, maybe there is. But, like, it would probably be akin to, like, nepotism where you'd have to email them, impress them, become their friend, and then have them give you access. So, yeah, it's really, like, eye-opening. I'm sure you have a lot of stories about it as well. But, like, a lot of it is just who you know. Like, can you network effectively to get to the right person, to the decision maker?

52:08 And then player cards right there. And then that will unlock, like, insane amounts of value, opportunity, like, lucrative partnerships.

52:19 And that's just how the world kind of works. And I don't know how I feel about that. It's not good. It's definitely not good. But. So, again, this could be, like, silver lining. It depends on who your audience is. If you're someone who's really good at networking, who's really social, outgoing, like, this is great news for you. You're like, oh, awesome. Like, and what's hilarious is that some research came out showing that, like, how much your boss likes you is more important, like, whoever your immediate manager is, is more important than, like, your actual level of work done.

52:49 And so, like, as a manager, like, you're still a human being. Like, you have emotions. You have a connection with people. And so, like, obviously, if one of your people that you manage you like on a personal level, you're going to be more lenient with them. Just similar to, like, one of your friends, right? If someone commits an egregious act, if that person is your friend, you're going to be much more lenient with them than if it's, like, some stranger or you don't know your boss. I don't know that guy.

53:15 Screw that guy. But, like, oh, Ken. Like, Ken's my friend. Like, yeah, I'm going to help out Ken. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just human nature. I agree. I mean, I feel like that's your point, right? It's, like, it's just human nature. We can't really fix it. And I guess that's true. There are ways, like, once you kind of figure that out, there are ways to kind of capitalize on it. Like, for example, I do run, like, a marketing agency on the side. And you could choose to either just send them one monthly update where it just is epic.

53:44 And you're, like, okay, we grew your social media account by this much. And you have this many followers. And, like, that feels nice. It feels very professional. But what actually ends up working way better is you actually message them, like, multiple times a week. Like, every time you have one video that's, like, popping off or doing well, you send them an update. And then, like, it becomes more of, like, a friendly nature. And you find that, like, the clients that actually renew, they renew much more often when you have more of that, like, friendly cadence of, like, you're constantly talking to them.

54:11 And you're constantly, like, they see you as a friend now because you're being, like, casual with them. And you're showing them how often you're working on it versus, like, more of a sturdy, like, here's our pitch deck of, like, why the last 30 days was so successful. And so, yeah, I mean, if that is just our human nature and you do kind of want to play on, like, if networking is really that important, then it probably is good to, like, level up that skill tree that you have because there are actually actionable things you could do with that skill tree that, like, will make your life a lot easier.

54:43 Like, even doing the same amount of work, it will make it because in those both of those cases, I did the same amount of work. It's just, like, like, did when did I send them the message of, like, what I did? It's, like, takes an extra 10 seconds, right? So it might actually take longer to make the professional looking pitch deck than to actually just shoot them a message every time. So, yeah, it's just interesting to think about, like, when you look at that lens of, yeah, it's pretty, I don't know if I communicate that correctly, but yeah.

55:10 Yeah, I mean, like what you said, it's not necessarily the most effort or the most pristine looking thing that gets ahead. It's more about, like, having a more of a human touch. And then, like, regardless if you're starting your own company or working in the workplace, like, the people I see who move up the fastest, it's purely nepotism. It's, like, the person who gets hired in as a VP, he brings in all his underlings from the previous company, and they all get, like, a title bump, and they all move up with him.

55:36 And, like, even, it's, like, effectively attaching yourself to, like, the local king or queen. So it's, like, almost like a mob-esque mob or fiefdom. Like a mafia. Exactly. It's essentially like a pyramid, right? There's a dude at a pyramid, but there's multiple pyramids within each company. So say a company has a bunch of these pyramids and mafias, right, and you attach yourself to the right mob boss. And, you know, like, you scratch their back, they're going to scratch yours, they're going to bring you along with them to the next, I guess, city would be, like, the next company.

56:11 And that's literally the people who move up the fastest in corporate. And it's, like, the brown-nosers, the people who, like, have someone pulling for them. Because, like, when it comes to performance review time or getting a promotion, it's literally, like, well, how much is your manager or your VP willing to fight for you? Because there's a limited number of promotions. And so it's, like, there's all of them. It's probably a bunch of you who did good work. That's, like, the bar. But then the next step is, like, well, do they know your name?

56:34 Like, how visible are your projects? Like, people like you? And an undercurrent of, like, yeah, it's, like, is this the right profile of person we want moving up? Do you want them to join us? Which, again, could be positive or negative, depending on how, what your personality is like. And it's just because the people, I'll say this, like, one, another example, like, from my side is, like, VCs will constantly email me. They'll be, like, you know, even if you're not raising right now, we usually know a company, like, for six months or a year before we actually invest in them.

57:09 I'm, like, dude, what, like, are you doing your job correctly? Like, you have, like, isn't, that is, like, that is kind of nepotism of, like, if you only invest in people that you have, like, personal relationships that you've built with, like, isn't the point of a VC you can evaluate a company and see, okay, this is, you know, they have really good metrics, I believe in this founder, I'm willing to take this bet, and I'm going to allocate capital to this team. But, you know, it's almost like a threat to me, like, you know, hey, we only invest in people that, and they're kind of, like, forcing me to get on these calls with them to, like, like, for them to kind of understand my soul.

57:47 Like, it's not even, like, a real pitch, right? It's just, like, I tell them about kind of, like, my philosophy and, like, my life. You know, I mean, I have a lot of stories where, like, you go to VC meetings, and it feels like they'll ask you really kind of unorthodox questions, and, you know, they'll basically evaluate you, like, things that really shouldn't matter for a startup. Or maybe it does matter. Like, maybe it sounds kind of naive because I'm not a VC. Maybe actually, like, they've discovered some secret sauce of, like, you know, they need to have some trauma in their childhood, and they need to, like, I really don't believe in that, I feel like just you want to find the best founders, the best builders that have traction, that understand some secret about the market, and they have some mode, and then just, like, give them money to let them, like, scale, which obviously is, like, pretty reductive, but I definitely don't like the other side of the coin, which is you don't,

58:39 you kind of factor that in, but instead, it's all about who do you know, right? Like, often VCs invest in people that, like, either just have, like, a big name, like, oh, he was the something, something, chief something at Spotify, you know, oh, he has to be so good, or, you know, like, he went to Y Combinator, like, they have to be, right? Like, I have friends who, who basically don't have a product, they're pre-product, pre-revenue, and they pretty much get the same valuation as us, and we have grown to 2 million users, we grow, like, 20% month over month, we have, like, 190,000 MRR, you know, like, it's, it's definitely past, like, a pre-product startup, you know, obviously, we kind of get the same valuation because, you know, he went to Stanford, he dropped that, or he graduated from Stanford, he's in the Bay, he knows all these VCs, he's been to their offices, like, you know, and I love this guy, by the way, I don't want to talk shit, like, this guy's a really great, I applaud him for

59:37 actually taking advantage of, like, these things that, that are only available to him, but just, like, on a, on a high level, it, it, it just feels not nice, it just feels like something's wrong, and, yeah, to your point, like, that's the negative side of it, I just, I spoke of the positive side of, like, you know, once you understand it, there are things you could do, actual things you do to change, like, how you kind of conduct yourself, which will put you a leg up, but the negative sides is, like, you will always kind of, if you're not really heavily, if you're not in the inner circle, if you're not in the right mafia, if you're not in the right mob, your life will just be way harder, and maybe that's something you just have to accept, but that's the truth, yeah.

1:00:19 Yeah, it's, like, definitely not even playing field, and, like, that cookie-cutter mold that you talked about, when I was a lot younger and still entertained dreams of, like, becoming a tech billionaire, it's, like, I saw that all the time, it's, like, well, that dude went to Stanford, you know, he got the Facebook job, he got into YC, and then, you know, gets the tech startup, that's, like, four-step stage plan. It's just, like, where do I send the check, right, it's, like, who do I wire to? And it's kind of funny, because that was actually my plan before, I was, like, oh, you know, I'll just go get a Stanford MBA, you know, after Netflix, I'll go to YC, and then after YC, I'll do something, but then, you know, I... Why? Why did you not fulfill that? We could have been working, basically having the same day-to-day. What happened? I mean, I took my life a different direction. I think there's a death in the family, had kids, kind of, you know, re-evaluated,

1:01:10 which you can find out all about in my new book coming out. Oh, plug it, dude. When's it coming out? Next March. But, yeah, basically, it's mostly just all the stuff I've talked about already in TikTok, but, like, more detailed. And for anyone who wants to write a book, don't, unless you really love writing, it's, like, extremely not worth it in terms of monetary rewards, unless you're already famous, like, Prince Harry or someone, right? I think he got an advance of, like, 8 million. Unless you're already famous, like, Frank New. It's going to flap the shelves.

1:01:41 I'd say I'm, like, a niche micro-celebrity. Dude, but you're niche in, like, the cool circles, like, the tech circles, like, the... Dude, if I... I was gonna... I told my friends, I was, like, oh, I'm gonna be on this, like, podcast. If I show any Asian dude, age, like, 25 to 35, your face, they'll be, like, oh, Frank New. Or they'll be, like, I have seen this dude's face before. I, like, I've seen this dude before. So, like, you've definitely penetrated, like, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're totally right. Like, whenever people...

1:02:12 People who know my name, that actually approach me in public, guaranteed to be Asian. Yeah. In, like, 20s to early 30s range. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm surprisingly popular in Singapore, which... Well, hell yeah. ...is kind of interesting, I guess, because I have a friend from a previous workplace, her husband... Well, they're both Singaporean, and then her husband is, like, quite connected with, like, Singaporean politics and, like, tech sphere, and, like, he got this Koya fund around a tech startup and sold them a bunch of stuff, and he's, like, oh, yeah, a lot of my friends are, like, surprised that I know you through my wife. I'm, like, oh, cool.

1:02:52 But at the same time, I think it's, like, I don't know. I would... If I could do it all over again, I'm not sure I would still start a social media account, because I think that, like... Really? I think it's bad for your mental health. Like, I don't... I don't think people are meant to, like, interact with so many people. Like, I think we're just not built for it. Like, every single content creator I've talked to... So I did... When I first started the podcast, I really had no idea what direction to take it, and then I thought I would model it off of, like, H3's podcast, where they just interview other content creators. I'm like, oh, that makes sense. You talk to other people with followings, they'll watch, right? And, like, the common theme of discussions, like, every single person I've talked to, like, 100%, they're all like, oh, yeah. Like, it takes a toll on your mental health. And, like, people have different ways of coping with it. For me, my way of coping

1:03:46 is that, like, I don't care that much anyway already. So it's, like, that's, I guess, just normal. But then other people, they, like, they say they have to, like, adopt a persona. Some people, like, actually hire people to, like, filter out comments for them. I don't know. It sounds ridiculous, but I think that's really smart. It is smart. I mean, if I cared more, I would do that. Well, no, I'm too cheap to do that. But, like, if I, if this is my full-time thing, I would do that, too. But, yeah, I don't know.

1:04:14 I think that, like, fame is definitely overrated once. But it's so, it's so, like, it's overrated. I have a couple comments here. One, it's overrated. But it's still, it's, like, the aftertaste is still a little sweet, you know? Like, there must be a reason you keep uploading, right? I mean, it's the reason I keep tweeting. Like, I want to act like I'm above it. I want to act like, yeah, I just post my startup updates, you know? It's for me. But I do get a, I do get that dopamine when someone says, like, wow, like, your journey's so crazy. You're, like, I learn so much from this. And, yeah. And I will say I empathize with, like, obviously I'm on a completely different level scale as you. But, you know, I can get 20 positive comments. But if I get one negative comment, it's just, like, in our nature, in my nature, like, as a founder, right, you're, like, you always want to prove people wrong. Like, I'll get a, I'll get really nice comments. And then one

1:05:11 person will be, like, your SEO blogs suck or something. Like, something really just, like, this guy, clearly, this guy has, this guy, you know, probably didn't even think too much about it. But, you know, I do look at my SEO blogs after. I'm like, yeah, this isn't, like, the degree of excellence that, you know, I've set for myself. And, like, I go and I do, I fix these blogs or I fix these, you know, articles. The reason I come on, like, yeah, it's bad. It's definitely not great for your mental health for, like, hundreds of thousands of people to kind of have control, have some lever of control over you, at least for me. I don't know, I don't know how much control they have over you. And the last thing is, like, I do think that every job, you'll have some toll on your mental health. Like, I bet if we were, like, handing out free samples to the Costco, we'd probably have some, like, it would take a mental toll on us, too, of, like,

1:06:02 we're just a glorified, like, you know, just giving out samples. We're just, like, a small cog in Costco's, like, grand plan of selling more rotisserie chicken. Like, imagine going home and, like, you can't feel, I mean, I don't know, I've never done it before. I've worked at Chipotle before. And that was also not great when I was just asking, like, you know, mild, medium, hot, corn, guacamole, guacas extra, is that okay? Like, that was, like, my, I would say that a thousand times a day, you know, and, like, that was definitely, like, not great either. So, I think we do kind of choose our own battles and, yeah. Yeah, you're totally right. It's, like, there are clearly still benefits, like, getting that book out now, even though, I don't know, I feel like I framed a lot of my life in, like, trying to make a lot of money. And in some ways, I still evaluate a lot of my decisions in terms of, like, that, even though I don't have to anymore,

1:06:55 which I guess is a habit I should try to break out of. But it's, like, speaking on, like, the book deal thing, it's, like, such a small amount of money. It's, like, I don't know, I guess for a lot of writers, it seems like a lot of people aspire to be writers. And then it's, like, for me, I never really thought I would do that. But again, I guess it's, like, you said, it's, like, because you already have the following, then you get the opportunity. So, like, I also invested a couple startups, again, because of the following. But I don't know, it's, it's strange, though, because I, it sounds like you might be similar in the sense that, like, you're more logical minded. You talked about the skill tree thing earlier. And a lot of these, you know, we've been talking a lot of these things in somewhat negative light in terms of, like, the social connections. But, like, my wife loves all that stuff. And she's great at it. Like, she's great at networking and politicking. And, like, she loves

1:07:48 hanging out with people. And I'm, like, man, I just want to, like, stay home. And I hate that shit. I hate that shit so much. Like, I, when I go to these startup networking events, I literally am so, like, I just feel out of place. I would rather just be building something cool. But, like, as you said, it's just, like, an acquired skill you have to kind of get better at, especially if you're running a startup. And, yeah, it's unfortunate. But, yeah, I guess we are similar in that, in that regard. And, dude, I'm glad, I'm excited to read your book. I do think, like, it would have been cool. Like, is there any part of you that, like, wants to, like, wants to make something kind of crazy? Like, make a crazy startup?

1:08:33 Or is that just, like, fully kind of, like, I think part of me still is. Just because it's something that I haven't been able to do. Like, I made a startup before and it failed. And I'm no longer, like, the two friends I convinced to quit their jobs are, I'm no longer friends with them. And also, I don't know, it just feels like, I think that humans need some sort of goal to work towards. And if you don't have one, you sort of languish and just wither away. And for social media, like, my original goal when I started was just to be my wife, which I did. And then it was, like, okay, now I have to get this blue checkmark. That's so funny.

1:09:08 Yeah. And then, like, I did all these media interviews because I'm, like, okay, I need these articles so I can get this stupid checkmark. And then I got that. I'm, like, okay, now what? Like, try to get a million followers, I guess. But it's, like, I guess getting followers doesn't even really mean anything because of how the algorithm works. It's, like, your followings doesn't really matter. It doesn't really at all. Yeah. It's, like, it doesn't really affect the views all that much. I think that in terms of, like, how many followers you have, there's a baseline of, like, the generic algorithm is just, like, oh, show it to a pocket of your followers and then gradually expand that out depending on certain metrics.

1:09:49 Yeah. The retention and watch time of, like, each concentric circle. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And then there are, like, secondary metrics, like, shares, comments, likes, et cetera. And then they also change it based on, like, whatever levers the PMs are pulling. Like, sometimes it'll be, like, they're prioritizing longer videos, like, over a minute to compete with so you don't have cross-posted YouTube shorts. Right. But, like, yeah, I don't know. I think I'll probably, I mean, I'll probably be busy for the next five to ten years with kids, honestly.

1:10:23 Like, I could, I think it's, like, I could, you know, just spend all my time working on something. But I think I already made the choice to focus on family, which, you know, I'll still be young-ish. I mean, I'll be middle-aged. I am middle-aged. I'll be more middle-aged by the time they're in school. How old are you? Is this public information? If you don't have to say, it's not. Yeah, I'm 32. It's not, I don't hide it or anything. Yeah. I mean, dude, like, I think the average startup's, successful startup founder's age is, like, 35 or 40 or something.

1:10:55 Like, it's way, you know, like, it's all, it's romanticized as, like, you know, these Stanford dropouts are the ones changing the world. But really, most often, it's actually not. So, you know, I do hope I see you out, like, back to Chamath. I see you in the arena one of these days. In the arena. Dude, this is an interesting podcast. I feel like we don't actually talk about, like, ourselves that much. We've just talked about, like, the all-in podcast. Yeah. Dude, like, is our opinions really that valuable that we're just talking about critiquing, like, human behavior and all that stuff?

1:11:28 Meta-commentary. I mean, I think it's, it's interesting just because, like, I don't know. I feel like I've talked about my own story a lot. And I guess I'd be more interested to hear about your story. And you talked about fighting cancer at the same time as building your startup. I assume you're, you know, you've won that battle and you're healthy now, question mark? Yeah, I mean, I think I'm healthy now. Like, I get blood tests. I haven't actually gotten my, so I got, like, half my thyroid removed. And the doctor said the surgery was successful, so I should be cancer-free.

1:12:07 But, yeah, it was super crazy. Like, it was pretty crazy because I was literally growing my startup from basically nothing to making millions a year. Well, at the same time, I was diagnosed with cancer. So, like, what's, like, that quote of, like, a tree can't reach the heights of heaven unless its roots are able to reach the depths of hell? And, like, that's actually kind of how I felt a little bit where, like, everything in my life, because, like, you know, I'm kind of a, I'm kind of a dork, right?

1:12:44 But I never aspired for, like, you know, too many things besides really, like, all I wanted was my startup to, like, fucking be, bring value to some people. Like, that was, like, it sounds like a weird goal, but that was just, like, my life's goal at the time. And I was finally able to achieve it. And then my life was possibly going to end at the same time. Thankfully, it was, like, thyroid cancer, which is, like, the mortality rate is actually pretty low. But, you know, even the disassociation of just saying, like, I have cancer was fucking crazy.

1:13:11 That took a long time for me to actually, like, be able to reconcile with that. And then there was another part of, you know, there's complications with thyroid because it's in your neck. Like, you could lose your voice or your voice could be, like, altered after the surgery. And, like, my whole life, I obviously am not a bodybuilder. There's nothing great, like, physically about me. You know, there's nothing, like, I have no skills with my hands. I have no, like, trade skills. Like, everything I've done is all about, like, communicating things, like, being, like, a founder.

1:13:41 And so, like, the fact that, like, the one, you know, bringing about, like, a skill tree that I've been working on was in jeopardy was also really sad to me. Because, you know, what if I woke up and, like, I couldn't speak? Even if it was for, like, three months, six months. That's actually pretty common. For, like, a few months, you're not really able to speak that well. Because, like, they have to move your vocal cords to, like, reach your thyroid. So, like, it can take time for it to get back to its normal place.

1:14:07 But, yeah, it was, like, I mean, that's the high-level summary of it. Of just, it was really made me reevaluate a lot of my personal life. And it was just so interesting that it happened at the same time as the greatest things I've always wanted in my entire life happening at the same time. So, it was, like, pretty crazy. How did you even find out initially that you had anything going on? Yeah, I was in Korea at the time. I have, like, this, like, growth in my jaw. You can't see it. But, like, if you feel it, it's, like, a little, like, marble.

1:14:41 And that was always trippy to me. So, I went there. And I was, like, hey, I have this growth in my jaw. Can you check it for me? And they did an ultrasound. They're, like, actually, that's totally benign. Don't worry about it. Like, hey, since you're here, do you want to just, like, do your neck, too? Like, just check it around? I'm, like, yeah, sure. And then they happened to check. And they were, like, holy shit, dude. You have, like, tumors in your thyroid. You know it's, like, scary because I was in Korea.

1:15:04 Like, when the really nice Korean lady is, like, talkative. Like, oh, you're so young. What are you doing? You know, what's your job? And then, like, complete silence for, like, three minutes. She's just, like, continually going over, checking the team, taking pictures. I'm, like, something's weird here. And then, yeah. So, it's actually complete luck. The fact that she just happened to check my neck and then find thyroid cancer is, like, pretty crazy. And I think, like, my life has been, like, middled with these, like, kind of unexplainable moments of, like, for example, I was once on a VC call.

1:15:35 It was going, like, totally lukewarm. And then he saw my scar. And then he actually had the same scar. He actually also had thyroid cancer. Wow. And then he gave me a term sheet for $300,000. You know, it's, like, really weird coincidences happening. You know, I'm not, like, a super religious person. But just, like, when you kind of go through these things, our feeble monkey brains, I feel you just want to kind of chalk it up to, like, maybe there is such a thing as fate. Maybe there is such a thing as, like, God, you know, and, you know, even if it's not totally logically coherent, it just feels nice.

1:16:12 It just makes me slightly happier throughout the day when I think about, like, these happy coincidences. Yeah, definitely. Like, everyone wanted to ascribe, like, all these happenstance and chance encounters to something bigger than themselves, like, a grand painting, tapestry of life, and, like, a small part of it being woven into, like, the correct spots. Yeah. I don't know how much time you got, but I have one last story on that kind of point of, like, before my surgery, it was a bunch of complications.

1:16:40 I had a fever. They were saying, like, we should probably move the surgery. But I was like, no, dude, I've been waiting so many months for this. Like, let's just run it. And so, but in order to do that, they had to, like, move some surgeries around. So I actually didn't know when my surgery start date was. So my mom was next to me. She flew out to Korea with me. And she was like, yeah, I have something I want to tell you before your surgery. I was like, okay, that's fine. And it just so happened that when she went to, like, the bathroom or something, the Korean nurses, like, came rushing in.

1:17:07 They were like, all right, we moved it around. Right now is the time to go. And I was like, okay, but my mom's not here. You know, I don't speak Korean. They're like, no, we got to go right now, right now. I was like, okay, can I take my phone? Like, no phone. We're rocking and rolling. I was like, okay. So they wheeled me down. I'm super scared. I don't understand what they're saying to me. Obviously, I'm like, I can speak Korean, but I don't know, like, papillary carcinoma. And I don't know, you know, these medical terms.

1:17:30 And they're explaining this shit to me. I'm signing documents I can't even read. I'm really scared. But then in the waiting room, I actually see above me on the ceiling, like, there's this Bible verse of just like, it's some generic Bible verse, like, you know, don't leave it all up to God or something kind of cliche, whatever. And for some reason, I was like, okay, I'll just, I've done all I can do. I'll just leave it all up to the big man upstairs. I'll just go into the surgery. And then so long story short, they do the surgery.

1:17:59 It was pretty crazy. I wake up to like blood everywhere. It's like nuts. I can't really move. I can't really talk. But, you know, eventually five days later, I'm able to like whisper out some words. And I'm like, you know, hey, mom, what was that thing that you wanted to tell me before my surgery? And she's like, oh, it's actually, and then she told me the Bible verse that was on the ceiling, the same Bible verse, right? And it's like a cute little story. We could obviously logically say like, oh, you know, the SEO of like what to tell a surgery patient before going to surgery.

1:18:27 The dude who wrote that on the ceiling and maybe my mom Googled the same thing and they ended up with the same Bible verse. Or maybe it's just like one of the most popular Bible verses. So it's like not that remarkable that they happen to be the same thing. But I think like the story is way more beautiful when you think about it. Like, man, like I was ready to bolt out of there. I didn't know what the hell was happening. I was signing things I didn't know. I was really scared. But because that was on the ceiling, you know, I felt a little more resolve and I stayed and I got this, I got the surgery and now I feel a lot better.

1:18:54 So, yeah, like, so ever since then, I've always kind of started thinking more in terms of like happy miracles and happy, like, like fate. And it probably makes me lose a little street cred in these like data scientists, like logic X circles. Right. But, you know, who gives a fuck about their opinion? Like I'm maximizing for my own happiness. And when I see the world through this lens, like I just am, I'm just a nicer person. I'm a happier person. So, yeah, that's just like one kind of like funny, miraculous kind of story from my surgery day.

1:19:31 Yeah, that's an amazing story. It's definitely the best one that's been told on my podcast anyway. Really? No, you're just being polite. But I appreciate it. Really? I mean, how much better can you get than like a life threatening situation? Like, yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah. I mean, I think that's a really great mindset to have because I would say I'm generally a somewhat depressing person. And my wife. You kind of seem like that, dude. You kind of, I'm not going to lie. Like you're a little like, yeah. My like general contentment levels are probably a bit below average.

1:20:01 But I think that my wife, hers are like very high, naturally. And her mindset is much more similar to the one that you, I guess, had, have now. Yeah. Where it's like everything kind of happens for a reason. Yeah. And I'm kind of just like, oh, well, everything just happens because it happens. But, yeah, I don't know. I think a lot of it is inherited in some way because my brothers, they're also kind of like lower on the happiness levels. A little gloomy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Too realistic, yeah. Yeah, I don't know what it is.

1:20:31 But I mean, I was like that too, man. I was definitely like that too. And it's not, I don't want to spin some like lie. I still have, I think the reason we were able to kind of have like a pretty well-flown discussion is like I have traces of kind of being too pragmatic and like looking at kind of like the faults in the world. Like it's pretty easy to poke, it's so easy to poke holes in things, right? It's so easy to look at the world and like, yeah, that is stupid. That is inefficient. That is suboptimal.

1:20:58 But like, is that really how we want to live our lives? Like I would rather just, yeah, I would rather just focus on the positive stuff. So, yeah. And I think it's, especially when you're an engineer, like when you're literally trained to be like, hey, you know, you will be rewarded for having this mindset and looking at things with like a critical eye, but then it's like the saying, it's like, you choose to critique something and you can either like do something about it or not, or like, do you have a way to potentially solve a situation?

1:21:29 Like, are you looking just to poke holes just to be critical? Or like, can you try to flip your mindset and think of like, well, how could that idea be successful? Or like, how would you fix that? If you can't fix it, then like, don't worry about it. Kind of deal. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's tough. It's definitely tough. Yeah. How much time we got? You want to share like one crazy now, now that you kind of heard my story, anything like kind of miraculous ever happened to you? The most miraculous thing. It almost feels like it was written.

1:21:59 It almost feels like a, like a, you wouldn't believe it if it was in a movie because it's just too cliche. Like something kind of like that ever happened to you? Um, not nearly as good as yours, but just, I guess on how I actually met my wife was very, very unlikely because, so first of all, when I was moving to SF, the person who I was about to get a room with, uh, he's renting out his extra room. He actually emailed me two weeks before and said like, Hey, I'm going to rent it out to some other dude. Cause he's paying me more, more money.

1:22:30 And so like his parents bought him the condo. I'm like, well, that sucks. So I go to try to find like an Airbnb, uh, and I eventually find one and this girl, she's like, Hey, if you want like a more long-term thing, uh, we could think about like making this like a unofficial sublease, uh, kind of skirting around Airbnb to get around the fees and such. Um, turns out she was like a huge psychopath and. Oh my gosh. It was like potentially the worst person I've met in my life. Thus for it could be worse people in the future.

1:23:02 I thought she was going to be her wife. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah. And then I changed her and now we're very, uh, but eventually, uh, so we, I guess, well, because she earned a decent amount of money and all the other people that I, I knew in SF slash were friends with, didn't earn as much money. Uh, I still lived with her for renew the lease at a different place and we got like a bigger place and nicer and then she tried to rent out the living room, uh, while I was on like a tech conference or something.

1:23:35 And so the first, there was like four people interested. The first person, um, she was like the person who worked at Google and she kind of backed out because I think she was getting bad vibes from my roommate, uh, which were correctly sussed uh, second person was a dude and his mom didn't want him living in the living room. Uh, third person, um, ended up backing out just for whatever reasons. And then the fourth person, uh, which ended up being my eventual wife, she moved in because and my like psychopath roommate didn't want to rent it out to her cause she felt like she was kind of suss, like she was from Canada, worked in like a sales position, um, and was like, okay, well, you know, don't want to rent it out to her.

1:24:23 She seems like the least stable out of these, all these choices. So she eventually moved in, uh, I eventually, against my better judgment and all the judgment of all my friends saying, Hey, don't date your roommate, uh, pursued a relationship with that girl who ended up living in the living room. Uh, and then we eventually, and then there was like a huge legal battle issue with that psychopath roommate and the landlord and yeah, you know, we ended up getting like somewhat kind of kicked out, not officially, but like kind of, they're like, Hey, we're going to evict you unless you just officially move out.

1:24:59 My roommate was threatening to like flood the place and flee to China. Uh, the, the, the psychopath one, she did a bunch more crazy stuff, like on us, um, threatened to like self-harm herself when her boyfriend was threatening to leave her. She was like seeing all these dudes. She like got all these STTs. Um, but, um, anyway, kind of story goes on, but, uh, eventually that person who moved into my living room and like, we're so, so different. Like she's like this outgoing salesperson. Uh, I was like nerdy tech dude.

1:25:32 Like we would have never really met in any other circumstance. Um, that's crazy. That's so beautiful, man. That's a crazy story. Yeah. I mean, I think it's more of like a, like a, like almost like a rom-com kind of thing where yours is more like a drama, right? Yours has like the highs and lows and mine's just kind of go like, ha ha. I did have to, I had to put more stakes on the table. I think of like my life or like, I guess you put a lot of stakes. You're the person you choose to spend the rest of your life with is pretty crazy too.

1:25:59 So, I mean, she's not crazy, but it is a crazy decision. Um, so yeah, I mean, I love your story. I mean, I have a crazy story with my girlfriend that I am with right now too, but basically like that's what life's about really like finding, like that's the most important decision is finding like your life partner and like, I'm glad that your living room was Airbnb'd out. I guess that was the really determining factor of like this whole trajectory of your life is just your living room, your Airbnb living room, which is pretty funny.

1:26:27 Yeah. It's, I don't know. Like, like you said, there's all these things that kind of, I mean, I think we've both been very fortunate in a lot of ways. Um, and aside tiny fun fact that I read about recently, Asian Americans, specifically like Eastern Asians who have been more or less assimilated, who like are English speaking, grew up in the West perform better, like make more money when you standardize the IQ compared to their white counterparts. So basically out of like all the different ethnicities, it's like Asian people are killing it, like career and money wise.

1:27:09 Um, and then the article didn't really go into the like whys. The why, yeah. Cause like. Cause that would be like racist, right? Yeah, exactly. But you know, it just. Let's not get into it here either. Ah, whatever. No one's going to listen to this last part. We're like in the, in the dregs. But I think it mostly comes down to culture because it's like, I think our parents, at least majority of Asian parents that I know of, they're really instill like, Hey, education, hard work, um, like putting your head down and doing the work, which I think also leads to this personality of like, we're not awesome at socializing because instead of like going out to party and dating and doing all this sports and stuff growing up, it's like, Hey, you know, we're studying, hitting the books.

1:27:49 We're doing well on our tests. Um, we're putting the work in, which also leads to these situations in the workplace or in networking events or like raising VC money where you're kind of at a disadvantage because like, instead of getting people to look at the metrics and being like, Hey, you know, I'm doing good work. I have this industry knowledge. Like you can look at my metrics and look at this growth. Like this should be enough, right? Like look at the numbers, look at the data. And then a lot of people who are completely Westernized, right?

1:28:18 They're, they're expecting a lot of like the chit chat that like wine and dine, the, um, the socialization aspect. Um, but I guess like overall, when you average it out against entire population, like this still turns out to be like a high expected value play. Like it on turns out like working really hard and keeping your head down, um, still works out pretty well. Dude, a hundred percent. And the crazy thing is like, I think that I honestly feel like the world was just like, it's giving me so many miracles because I'm the exact same way of like, I'm not really good at socializing.

1:28:54 I just want to put my head down and work, but it happened to, it happened to be the COVID took over the world. So that I actually was pitching to VCs over like webcam, which is much less scary than having to stand in front of like in a boardroom with the, with the monitor, you know? And like having to actually like go to these networking parties, but like now I can just join via zoom. And it was like, that was so good for me as somebody with like, not the best socializing skills. And then on top of that, when COVID relaxed, everyone had masks.

1:29:23 So when I had, when, when I had to actually go to these pitch pitches to like do it in person and in front of crowds, I was able to wear a mask, which makes it so much less scary because like, you know, even if my face turns red or I feel like a question flusters me, I was able to kind of hide that behind a mask. And then once you do that enough, you don't really need the mask because you have enough of like the experience doing it on stage with the mask. So, yeah, I mean, like I totally vibe with that of like, you know, I feel like in general, Asian-Americans are a little more timid, a little more reserved and a little more just kind of heads down and focus.

1:29:58 And it just so happened that the cards were played out where like, even though I didn't have these other skill sets, like the circumstances turned out where I didn't really need them as much. And I think honestly, that played to a lot of like my current startup success is just those circumstances. So a lot of like my success is like luck, like like that, these things kind of unfolding and it kind of goes back to like, these are really crazy miracles of like the entire world had to shut down for me to have like an equal fighting chances, like the absolute Riz Lord from Stanford.

1:30:30 You could go into the building room and just like, you know, look these guys, these like billionaires in the eyes and get a hundred thousand check. I can't even look them in the eyes like when I'm 2021. Right. So, but, you know, it's easy for me to look at myself on the screen. It's easy for me to like share a screen. If I'm like a little pixel in the corner, it's not that scary to me. So, um, yeah, no, I totally agree. Like, uh, I don't, I mean, you can link me to it after, but like, yeah, that, that does make a lot of sense to me.

1:30:53 Yeah. And it's hilarious. Cause like the zoom evening out the playing field is also been studied somewhat. And it's like people who are taller have advantage in the workplace, but over zoom, everyone's the same height. Dude, we're both six, four right now. We're both six, four, man. And not even that. So like, if someone works remotes, like I remember this one dude, he was like a contractor at Grubhub. He came in, dude was completely jacked. Like you couldn't tell from his like up cause it just looked like a normal guy, but he came to the office.

1:31:23 Dude was huge, like tall, jacked. It's like, he probably would have gotten more money if he came to the office, but he was like a remote worker. And I think to a lesser extent, it even has to do with female attractiveness levels. So they found out, I forget what the, this was like high school. I hope it was high school, but teachers generally would give better grades to females who are more attractive, both genders. And so high school teachers would, teachers would, but over zoom, it's a little icky, but like over online, over zoom, like that effect diminished effectively zero.

1:31:59 Um, and I think that's like, like he's mentioned earlier, like we can't escape our human impulses and like people who are more attractive and like taller, uh, in person, like they get a lot of these advantages, but like, as we move to a lot of online interactions and zoom calls, um, the play field actually does get evened out a bunch. Assuming you can speak like proper English, there's always still that language barrier, which, you know, with AI, maybe it'll actually be gone soon. It's like, I actually saw something pretty crazy recently.

1:32:30 A person had a live transcription of the interviewer asking questions and then hooked that up to chat GBT. Oh, my buddy made that. Oh, my buddy. Cool. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. My boy Aiden made that tool. It's like, uh, uh, it's like your AI interview helper. And then it's like, it's like, you could, it shows what the asset and gives you like a script of what you could answer. And then the person used it to answer like these chemistry questions and they weren't trained in like chemistry at all. Yeah. I was like, yeah, the future of interviewing, how are you even fix that?

1:33:01 I don't know. The crazier AI is like, there's a company selling to like offshore, like customer sales service where the person speaks and then the AI removes their accent. So they just sound like a person born in the USA, which is like, I don't know how I feel about that, but it probably is going to increase customer satisfaction, unfortunately, just because people don't like, people want to feel like they're talking to you, you know? So, I mean, yeah. Like, so it's going to be kind of wild. Like, I'm not like, even the weird things like the AI that makes it your eyes are always looking into the camera.

1:33:37 Yeah. Yeah. So that in conjunction with the script on the right, in conjunction with making your voice, like five octaves deeper. So you sound like a giga chad and then like a deep fake to make yourself like the, make your receding hairline a little more or less than like all that, dude, it's going to be crazy. I don't know what the future is going to look like. It's like, you already see the influencers with filters and it's just taking that to the next level of like all this stuff put together. You can look and sound like anyone online effectively.

1:34:05 Dude, wait till we meet. I'm like three foot two. I'm like, I'm actually not even Asian. No. This is just a really good filter. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. I probably got to get going soon. I got to go pick up my kids. Dude, genuinely fun talking with you. Genuinely fun talking with you, man. Yeah. I mean, definitely we should chat again with updates on your just life and also even get to get a chance to ask about your hobbies or like what you'd like to do in your downtime. Dude, we're just philosophizing, man. I'm like, we're solving the world's most toughest questions on this podcast.

1:34:40 Yeah. In the future, this is how you solve all the problems. Have all your calls filtered so everyone's level-y, attractive, and boom. Boom. No more nepotism. There you go. Good way to end it. But yeah, thanks so much for having me on, dude. I don't do a lot of podcasts. Hopefully, this was entertaining for whoever's listening. Like, dude, well, let's do this again sometime. For sure. Awesome. Thanks for joining, David. And thank you to everyone listening to the Frankly Speaking podcast. I'll see you next time.