WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:10.160 Welcome to the Frankly Speaking podcast. Today I am joined by David Park, founder and CEO of Jenny AI. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. 00:00:10.980 --> 00:00:14.580 It was all pronounced correctly. The name, the startup. Thank you so much for having me. 00:00:15.120 --> 00:00:21.980 Yeah, so David is a pretty hotshot founder. He has over a million users on his products already. 00:00:23.300 --> 00:00:24.140 Two million. 00:00:24.500 --> 00:00:28.940 Two million now. Wow. Jason Calakadakis from All In Podcast is one of his investors. 00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:34.960 I actually found him initially on Twitter. I don't remember what post he tweeted, but I thought it was insightful. 00:00:35.180 --> 00:00:39.040 So I followed him. He messaged me and here we are. So welcome, David. 00:00:39.900 --> 00:00:46.840 Dude, this is crazy. I've seen your TikToks probably for like the last, I don't even know, for a while. 00:00:47.100 --> 00:00:50.860 And then when I saw you followed me, your Twitter username is completely different from your TikTok username. 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:51.440 Yeah. 00:00:51.440 --> 00:00:57.740 I was like, who is, I've seen this guy's face, but I don't know. It's like some, is it like your Chinese name or something? 00:00:57.800 --> 00:01:02.180 I was like, who is this guy? And then, yeah. And then once I figured out it was you, I was like, okay, I have to DM this guy. 00:01:03.260 --> 00:01:08.140 Yeah. So my Frank Nu handle was taken by some other random Frank Nu, I guess. 00:01:09.100 --> 00:01:13.880 And yeah, my Chinese name is what I use for a lot of stuff just because I can't get that unique handle everywhere. 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:17.940 But if I ever become super rich, I'll buy out my handle everywhere. 00:01:18.720 --> 00:01:25.220 Yeah. I've tried to buy a few handles on Twitter as well. And it always ended catastrophically because I always post about my startup. 00:01:25.340 --> 00:01:26.740 So they think I'm like really rich. 00:01:26.940 --> 00:01:27.160 Yeah. 00:01:27.400 --> 00:01:33.460 Like, yeah, that's going to be $100,000. I'm like, dude, I don't have that money to buy a Twitter handle right now. 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:38.160 Yeah. It's hilarious. Do you see how Elon just took the X handle from some dude? 00:01:38.620 --> 00:01:49.380 Yeah. Yeah. I have mixed feelings about that. But I mean, it really sucks for that dude. I think we're all in agreeance. It really fucking sucks for that X dude. 00:01:49.720 --> 00:01:49.920 Yeah. 00:01:51.520 --> 00:01:59.960 I'm surprised he didn't just offer him like some pity money. Like it would have been better than nothing. Even like, I don't know, 10K, which is like literally nothing to him. 00:02:00.420 --> 00:02:04.620 And people still would have been upset at 10K, but I feel like less so. But I guess he doesn't care. 00:02:05.460 --> 00:02:09.660 I mean, have you read his autobiography or his biography by Walter Isaacson, Elon's? 00:02:10.520 --> 00:02:14.920 Is that the most recent one? I read a previous one. I don't remember which one it was, though. 00:02:15.920 --> 00:02:18.080 It came out like, I think, two months ago. 00:02:18.480 --> 00:02:19.600 Oh, no, I haven't read that one. 00:02:20.300 --> 00:02:25.940 Well, he's famously like super mercurial about like cutting costs and like not wasting any money. 00:02:26.380 --> 00:02:30.740 So unfortunately, I think this X guy, he was he knew he could just get it for free. 00:02:30.740 --> 00:02:35.200 So he just decided to not add to the to his balance sheet with any more costs. 00:02:36.060 --> 00:02:38.860 Yeah, that kind of tracks with all the marketing that he's done. 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:48.960 I don't know how like legitimate it is, though, like because in his first biography, he also has this story where he's like building his rockets and like he can't get rockets for a reasonable price in America. 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:54.600 So he goes to Russia. Yeah, he is like used old ass rockets and, you know, engineers everything himself. 00:02:54.600 --> 00:03:00.460 But like, so I used to think like, oh, man, this dude's like Tony Stark, right? 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:05.500 And then like the more I kind of learned about him and most of it, honestly, was from like Twitter and Reddit. 00:03:05.880 --> 00:03:07.500 They're like, oh, no, he's like, holy shit. 00:03:07.600 --> 00:03:10.080 Like, oh, this is like marketing propaganda. 00:03:10.320 --> 00:03:20.860 He like grew up rich, had a bunch of like emeralds in his pockets in New York or something like so like this entire persona that were sold or he sold, I guess. 00:03:20.860 --> 00:03:26.500 He was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. 00:03:26.500 --> 00:03:32.340 Pretty real, because he like fired the Pepper Potts equivalent of him. 00:03:32.780 --> 00:03:34.500 It was like his long term. 00:03:35.100 --> 00:03:35.260 Yeah. 00:03:35.380 --> 00:03:36.620 Oh, no, that was in the other biography. 00:03:36.720 --> 00:03:37.400 Yeah, I remember that. 00:03:38.160 --> 00:03:42.060 Like the craziest part was he was like she asked for a raise or something. 00:03:42.180 --> 00:03:42.360 Yeah. 00:03:42.580 --> 00:03:47.240 He was like, let me absorb all of your job responsibilities for a week and then I'll see if I'll give you a raise. 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:49.040 And he realized, oh, I could just do your job. 00:03:49.140 --> 00:03:50.960 And then I'm like, holy fuck. 00:03:51.060 --> 00:03:52.080 That was crazy to me. 00:03:52.180 --> 00:03:53.720 Like, I was thinking, you don't do that. 00:03:54.420 --> 00:03:54.900 No, you don't. 00:03:55.020 --> 00:03:56.160 I mean, I agree with you. 00:03:56.160 --> 00:04:00.400 I mean, the mythos of Elon Musk is now bigger than the human Elon Musk. 00:04:01.040 --> 00:04:06.140 But, you know, I think it's hard to disagree that he's like a really capable entrepreneur. 00:04:06.200 --> 00:04:15.140 Like the smartest people in the world who are like the best allocators of capital all want to back Elon Musk, which probably means that they know that he's a winner. 00:04:15.640 --> 00:04:16.280 A winner. 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:16.640 Yeah. 00:04:17.240 --> 00:04:17.720 Yeah. 00:04:17.900 --> 00:04:26.740 Regardless of all the like ethical implications, it's like you can't really argue that realistically, if you're wealthy or not already, like no one else could really have accomplished what he did. 00:04:27.420 --> 00:04:31.920 You know, obviously not a perfect person, very controversial in some ways. 00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:36.320 But I feel like it's somewhat hard not to be controversial these days. 00:04:38.320 --> 00:04:38.840 Yeah. 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:50.300 It's, yeah, there's just people seem to be really addicted to outrage content and being upset and having the virtue signaling type of stuff online is, I don't know, super crazy. 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:52.980 Like getting more crazy these days than the past couple of years. 00:04:52.980 --> 00:04:54.120 It makes you feel alive, you know? 00:04:54.440 --> 00:05:04.080 It makes you feel alive when you feel like someone else, if some celebrity just looks really fucking stupid in your eyes, then it just kind of like elevates yourself. 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:06.660 It's like, oh, man, these celebrities are so stupid. 00:05:06.820 --> 00:05:14.280 And then you can just parrot that on Twitter and on stories and kind of makes you feel better by yourself, which is kind of unfortunate. 00:05:14.920 --> 00:05:18.700 I think it's very similar to like, before it was like thoughts and prayers on Facebook. 00:05:18.700 --> 00:05:25.240 And then it became like, oh, you know, change your profile picture to like this flag to whatever the current trending topic is. 00:05:25.300 --> 00:05:27.000 And now it's like, oh, make outrage content. 00:05:27.160 --> 00:05:31.900 Like not only do those things, but also make a video, calling them out or a tweet or like something. 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:35.800 And then you get, you know, a lot of votes, upvotes or likes or hearts or whatever. 00:05:36.460 --> 00:05:36.640 Right. 00:05:36.780 --> 00:05:39.040 And you get that like dopamine hit and you're like, oh, this feels nice. 00:05:39.780 --> 00:05:40.180 Yeah. 00:05:40.380 --> 00:05:42.260 You immediately become like part of a tribe, right? 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:47.360 You immediately become like accepted by the other people who are like have decided to make up their minds. 00:05:47.500 --> 00:05:49.960 And yeah, it's pretty crazy. 00:05:50.080 --> 00:06:07.280 I have a theory, though, like the next generation, like not our generation, but the one maybe maybe the next network, like when they're like maybe the 10 year olds now won't have as much of cancel culture because their entire life is documented online and everyone is bound to say some like really questionable, terrible things. 00:06:07.280 --> 00:06:12.760 And they're like teens, whereas we, you know, most of ours is like hidden just because we did it. 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:14.440 We had like T-Mobile razors. 00:06:14.660 --> 00:06:17.240 And so like those didn't really like track all of our stuff. 00:06:17.240 --> 00:06:24.500 But hopefully it's a better time for them because you can't cancel anybody because everybody has like skeletons in their closet, like really visibly that you could see. 00:06:25.220 --> 00:06:29.420 Yeah, it's hilarious because everyone says like the Internet is forever. 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:36.780 But like you said, we don't we didn't really experience that because most of our stuff is now they're extinct or just like was never recorded in the first place. 00:06:36.780 --> 00:06:36.940 Yeah. 00:06:37.500 --> 00:06:37.720 Yeah. 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:48.420 Which is maybe good, you know, but kind of bad because now the few things we do find, it's like, holy shit, do you guys see his old messages when he was 16? 00:06:49.080 --> 00:06:55.580 You know, it's like, I don't know, everyone sends really, you know, you're still learning at 16. 00:06:55.740 --> 00:06:58.220 You're kind of meant to mess up and fuck up at that time. 00:06:58.300 --> 00:07:02.580 It's weirder if you don't have like things that you learned from, I think, at that age. 00:07:03.020 --> 00:07:06.780 Yeah, it's like you repressed it all Ned Flanders style and blow up eventually. 00:07:07.460 --> 00:07:07.860 Right, right. 00:07:09.260 --> 00:07:15.380 I guess, first of all, let's talk more about Jenny AI, like what got you started on the concept? 00:07:15.760 --> 00:07:19.240 I've seen you've been working on this for a somewhat long time, it appears. 00:07:19.900 --> 00:07:23.740 Or like I went on your LinkedIn and it said you were Holtan or something. 00:07:23.900 --> 00:07:24.740 And then this Jenny. 00:07:25.860 --> 00:07:26.300 Yeah. 00:07:27.440 --> 00:07:30.060 So, I mean, I've been always pretty interested. 00:07:30.060 --> 00:07:34.600 I feel like a canon event for a lot of entrepreneurs is they watch The Social Network, the movie. 00:07:34.700 --> 00:07:35.200 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:07:35.320 --> 00:07:42.780 So, I watched that on my, I think, eighth grade birthday, which means I was like 13, 14. 00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:44.540 And I thought that was so cool. 00:07:44.700 --> 00:07:46.200 I was like a nerd when you watch that movie. 00:07:46.300 --> 00:07:51.880 You think like, oh, this is like the apex of my coolness I could probably achieve, like in this movie, you know. 00:07:51.880 --> 00:07:59.680 You don't really like visualize yourself as like, you know, the Marvel superhero or like the frat star or whatever. 00:07:59.840 --> 00:08:07.880 But like, you know, I really felt like, okay, I could be, you know, probably this smart in my lifetime of this social network, which is kind of weird because it's actually kind of like a tragic movie. 00:08:08.220 --> 00:08:14.120 But I guess I was so young, I didn't really, I just saw like the, like the adventure that they had. 00:08:14.320 --> 00:08:15.280 But, yeah. 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:17.400 So, anyways, I started my first company when I was 16. 00:08:18.300 --> 00:08:21.980 What you're referring to is Altum, which I started in my freshman year of college. 00:08:23.080 --> 00:08:28.060 And, yeah, I mean, I basically failed so many startups until Jenny AI, which I started four years ago. 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:30.520 Even Jenny AI failed its first iterations. 00:08:30.860 --> 00:08:34.000 We started off as like an SEO tool, like a B2B tool. 00:08:34.700 --> 00:08:36.500 And that really failed to get traction. 00:08:36.740 --> 00:08:38.720 I don't know if you know of like Jasper AI, Copy AI. 00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:39.140 Yep. 00:08:39.540 --> 00:08:44.900 They like wiped the floor with me because one, I was like a snotty-nosed, like 21-year-old. 00:08:44.900 --> 00:08:47.900 And they were like 40-year-olds with a bunch of VC funding. 00:08:47.900 --> 00:08:50.160 And they just knew how distribution way better. 00:08:50.860 --> 00:08:55.500 But then once I lost to them, I kind of learned some of their playbook. 00:08:55.760 --> 00:09:05.120 And then I was able to try again because there's a blue ocean in academia of like researchers and college students who wanted to, you know, write with AI. 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:07.820 So, I was able to really try again. 00:09:07.940 --> 00:09:12.180 So, we pivoted away from B2B to B2C to these, to academia. 00:09:12.980 --> 00:09:15.800 And, yeah, I mean, it's been going really well. 00:09:16.260 --> 00:09:20.540 Right now, our niche is like graduates, PhDs, and master's students. 00:09:21.420 --> 00:09:24.480 And, yeah, I mean, essentially, like I said, we're at 2 million users. 00:09:24.940 --> 00:09:29.580 But, you know, for three years, we were stuck at less than probably like 10,000 users. 00:09:29.800 --> 00:09:33.560 And it was only within the last 15 months we grew to 2 million users. 00:09:34.300 --> 00:09:38.140 And, you know, finally getting some semblance of success. 00:09:38.940 --> 00:09:39.340 Nice. 00:09:39.480 --> 00:09:43.440 Yeah, it sounds like that's a quite pretty good journey. 00:09:43.560 --> 00:09:46.480 And a lot of people underestimate the first couple of years. 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:50.180 In your case, like almost like a decade where it's just not much going on. 00:09:50.300 --> 00:09:53.420 And then vertical growth and the hockey stick. 00:09:53.960 --> 00:09:57.140 And then what do you think really made the difference? 00:09:57.220 --> 00:09:59.620 Was it more like the niching down to the graduate students? 00:10:00.220 --> 00:10:01.320 And then that blew up. 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:05.580 And then was it also like your social media presence that did a lot of marketing? 00:10:05.700 --> 00:10:07.860 Was it more word of mouth, et cetera? 00:10:09.160 --> 00:10:12.080 Yeah, I mean, I wish there was one, like, sexy answer. 00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:15.740 I probably could make up a sexy answer of, like, we solved this one key thing. 00:10:16.020 --> 00:10:17.920 And this trick is what you need to write. 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:24.340 But, like, you know, there are probably small things I picked up from my first startup, I feel, when I was 16 years old. 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:30.940 All the way up until, you know, my latest iteration of Jenny, where all the things just started to click. 00:10:32.260 --> 00:10:42.140 And I do think it's kind of holistic where, yeah, I mean, I do think that it's not just, you can't just do one thing correctly. 00:10:42.140 --> 00:10:45.800 Unless you're doing it at, like, the 1% level of, like, expert level. 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:47.700 But, you know, it wasn't like we were doing that. 00:10:47.780 --> 00:10:50.300 It was just we started to talk more to users. 00:10:50.620 --> 00:10:57.160 We started to actually cut out all the superfluous features in our product. 00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:00.360 We started to be more lean. 00:11:01.860 --> 00:11:04.620 Just, like, really basic things that we started to do correctly. 00:11:06.160 --> 00:11:15.100 And, yeah, I guess the big thing, actually, if I had to pick one, is probably more just, 00:11:15.500 --> 00:11:22.040 going back to, like, the social network, you know, when I watched that movie, I thought I was the next Mark Zuckerberg. 00:11:22.220 --> 00:11:24.180 I thought, like, oh, I'm a founder. 00:11:24.400 --> 00:11:26.400 I'm going to make a billion-dollar company. 00:11:27.100 --> 00:11:30.480 But it turns out, like, almost all of my decisions were wrong. 00:11:30.780 --> 00:11:33.420 Like, anything based on my gut was just kind of incorrect. 00:11:34.040 --> 00:11:34.880 Almost always. 00:11:35.540 --> 00:11:40.460 And then even if I go and I talk and I listen to users, they're still wrong some percentage of the time. 00:11:40.560 --> 00:11:41.960 Like, some percent of it is still wrong. 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:45.320 But at the very least, it trended in the right direction. 00:11:45.500 --> 00:11:47.300 So it would be, like, somewhat right. 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:48.800 And then I would continue to talk to users. 00:11:48.900 --> 00:11:50.700 And then I would correct it, correct it, correct it. 00:11:50.740 --> 00:11:53.560 And then we'd eventually make something that users actually like to use. 00:11:53.820 --> 00:12:00.220 So, yeah, I would say a lot of it has to do with kind of removing your own ego, I would say. 00:12:00.280 --> 00:12:04.380 Which sucks because, like, I feel like entrepreneurship attracts people with large egos. 00:12:04.580 --> 00:12:09.160 It takes someone with a very large ego to, like, get punched in the face, like, literally every single day. 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:13.440 And then still wake up and be like, I'm going to make a billion-dollar company. 00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:17.080 But in order to also succeed, you need to have the inverse of that. 00:12:17.180 --> 00:12:22.940 It's, like, a beautiful, like, dichotomy of, like, you have to be, you have to really believe in yourself. 00:12:23.040 --> 00:12:29.020 But you have to also, like, really not take yourself seriously and just think, how can I make the best product? 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:30.080 How can I listen to my users? 00:12:30.260 --> 00:12:32.900 So, yeah, I would say those are some takeaways. 00:12:33.700 --> 00:12:40.760 Yeah, so some common themes I heard throughout what you said and what I've read elsewhere is really just getting user feedback, iteration. 00:12:41.540 --> 00:12:47.860 And also, like you said, it's not one big thing, but a lot of small things that you've done throughout all the previous experiences. 00:12:48.160 --> 00:12:48.980 And it adds up. 00:12:49.220 --> 00:12:58.780 And after, like, the continual iteration, at some point, the, like, amalgamation of all the experiences and benefits just turns into something that people want to use. 00:12:59.620 --> 00:13:03.340 No, I mean, that's, like, can we, like, deepfig your answer onto my voice? 00:13:03.400 --> 00:13:05.800 Because that was, like, way more succinct than whatever the fuck I just said. 00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:07.760 So, like, let's just roll with that. 00:13:09.700 --> 00:13:18.000 Yeah, I mean, speaking of, like, deepfigs and stuff, I've seen OpenAI, like, add more and more and more features. 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:32.880 Like, one of the huge things that a lot of companies wanted initially when they saw this, they're like, all right, how do we train these models on our own internal data so we can read our documents, summarize internal training, all the, like, stuff that they don't actually want the training data to be based off of. 00:13:33.100 --> 00:13:33.380 Yeah. 00:13:33.380 --> 00:13:34.720 They want their personalized OpenAI. 00:13:35.300 --> 00:13:37.000 So, a lot of people were trying to make that. 00:13:37.300 --> 00:13:39.460 And then I think in the past week, OpenAI just released something. 00:13:39.540 --> 00:13:40.940 It's like, hey, we're letting you do this now. 00:13:41.540 --> 00:13:42.400 You know, upload a document. 00:13:42.580 --> 00:13:43.160 You can do this. 00:13:43.900 --> 00:13:44.060 Yeah. 00:13:45.100 --> 00:13:48.740 Are you worried that, I guess, they're going to eat your lunch? 00:13:48.920 --> 00:13:52.680 So, like, similar to, like, how Amazon kind of, like, compares products that are doing well. 00:13:52.780 --> 00:13:55.140 They're just like, oh, you know, this product's selling well because they have all the data. 00:13:55.580 --> 00:13:56.100 Right, right. 00:13:56.200 --> 00:13:56.380 Right. 00:13:56.420 --> 00:13:56.920 They have all the data. 00:13:57.020 --> 00:13:59.080 And they're like, okay, we'll just undercut them, kill them. 00:13:59.160 --> 00:14:01.800 And then, you know, once they're dead, we'll just sell our own version. 00:14:02.660 --> 00:14:02.820 Yeah. 00:14:02.820 --> 00:14:12.940 So, I guess if, like, you know, GPT-4 access is ever cut off, is that still, like, a kind of, like, a central point to your startup and potentially, like, a lot of the other startups in the past year? 00:14:13.160 --> 00:14:20.520 Or do you think that eventually you might be able to, like, I don't know, replace it with an open source model, like, like, a llama or something like that? 00:14:20.560 --> 00:14:20.860 Yeah, yeah. 00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:23.000 I mean, I hear two questions. 00:14:23.160 --> 00:14:29.780 So, I'll start with the first thing of, like, am I afraid that, it sounds like the questions are, am I ever afraid OpenAI is going to cut off access? 00:14:29.940 --> 00:14:31.360 And if it does, what will happen to us? 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:35.800 And the other one is, like, am I afraid OpenAI will ever create a, like, they'll ever compete with us? 00:14:36.940 --> 00:14:41.640 I guess the one I think about more is the competition part. 00:14:42.400 --> 00:14:50.800 Like, I will say it's not outside the realm of possibilities where OpenAI maybe makes, like, a chat GPT. 00:14:51.440 --> 00:14:59.700 Like, they go out of chat and they create some, like, editor and they create some, like, document where it has AI-first capabilities. 00:15:00.560 --> 00:15:11.340 But, you know, I feel like one competitive or one moat that we have that isn't really obvious is that we're going after, like, academia. 00:15:11.640 --> 00:15:18.740 Like, there's still a lot of journals where they don't accept AI-written content or it's kind of ambiguous what AI-written content. 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:19.960 And definitely in college, right? 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:21.260 It's case by case. 00:15:21.340 --> 00:15:22.640 Some classes allow AI content. 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:23.460 Some classes don't. 00:15:24.300 --> 00:15:32.780 And so being in kind of that legal gray area, initially, it might seem kind of off-putting and it might scare a founder, I think. 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:44.760 But actually, being in that gray area is, like, one of the safest places to be because you know that these larger incumbents are more scared of, like, doubling down and, like, going – getting – because bad PR for us, you know, we can only go down to zero. 00:15:44.760 --> 00:15:54.860 And, like, sure, we make, like, some money now, but it's definitely not nearly as painful as, like, Google or, you know, Microsoft Word or, you know, OpenAI. 00:15:55.060 --> 00:16:04.600 If they start being labeled as, like, a cheating company or they're hurting the intelligence of, you know, students, these sorts of things can really affect stock prices. 00:16:04.760 --> 00:16:06.240 They can affect, like, internal morale. 00:16:06.500 --> 00:16:12.240 Like, so I actually think that insulates us a lot, that moving in the gray area. 00:16:12.280 --> 00:16:17.460 And there's a lot of examples of, like, I think, like, Uber, Airbnb, Coinbase, like, they were also able to kind of ride in that. 00:16:17.460 --> 00:16:19.240 They were building, like, the playbook. 00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:25.400 They were building the legislation as they were kind of growing, which protected them as well. 00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:31.860 So – but that isn't to say that I think that competition isn't something that I think about or something that I'm scared of. 00:16:31.940 --> 00:16:33.420 Or not scared of, something that I'm mindful of. 00:16:34.160 --> 00:16:38.180 But I just don't think that it's something in the near future. 00:16:38.680 --> 00:16:41.600 But watch – but life is very funny. 00:16:41.720 --> 00:16:46.680 So watch this podcast come out and then I open it and immediately release, like – that'd be pretty awesome as well. 00:16:46.940 --> 00:16:48.040 But, yeah. 00:16:48.060 --> 00:16:51.740 And then the other thing is we have experimented with other models as well. 00:16:53.380 --> 00:16:54.140 I won't lie. 00:16:54.220 --> 00:17:04.820 I would say if they cut off, like, GPT 3.5 access, I don't think that'd be a problem because I think we could get to – like, there are other alternatives out there where we could get, like, pretty similar results, I think. 00:17:05.280 --> 00:17:08.860 But GPT-4 is probably one of the leading models right now. 00:17:08.940 --> 00:17:10.640 That would probably be a little more of a headache. 00:17:11.220 --> 00:17:14.700 But with enough funding and with enough time, I think that also wouldn't be an issue. 00:17:15.600 --> 00:17:22.720 We also – we were – before GPT-4 came out, we were, like, deploying – we deployed our own model. 00:17:23.380 --> 00:17:27.700 And we were, like, thinking of sponsoring a PhD student at our alma mater, UCSD. 00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:33.880 But the conclusion we came down to was, like, OpenAI is just a monster. 00:17:34.020 --> 00:17:34.780 They have all the talent. 00:17:35.020 --> 00:17:36.200 They have more money than God. 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:45.240 Even if we were somehow able to get parity with GPT-4, once GPT-5 comes out, like, all the work we put in would just get – it would just be wasted. 00:17:45.500 --> 00:17:50.760 Because, yeah, I mean, it's – we're, like, a nine-person team. 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:53.840 Many of us, like, this is some of our first jobs. 00:17:54.340 --> 00:18:02.680 So it's unclear if we could, like, beat OpenAI at their game of creating these humongous and, like, miraculous LLFs. 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:04.820 Yeah, that makes sense. 00:18:05.080 --> 00:18:08.360 And then to follow up a bit on something that you mentioned about legislation. 00:18:08.700 --> 00:18:11.080 So, like, you're protected by great area. 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:24.300 But at the same time, it also seems like a lot of the tech giants are now trying to kind of pull up the ladder behind them by introducing new legislation to make it financially unlikely for startups to kind of chase after them. 00:18:24.660 --> 00:18:30.260 So you mentioned how, like, already it was quite unlikely for a small team to compete just based on their resources alone. 00:18:30.560 --> 00:18:37.960 But now, you know, them in combination with Microsoft, Google, kind of the incumbent tech giants have been talking to Congress. 00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:43.740 They're trying to introduce legislation that will effectively cripple a lot of AI development. 00:18:43.760 --> 00:18:45.060 It always sounds so good, right? 00:18:45.080 --> 00:18:47.500 They're like, oh, we need this legislation for AI safety. 00:18:48.060 --> 00:18:55.740 And, like, the only things that, like – the only companies that, like, fulfill this requirement happen to be the people that's, like, paying the most money to the government. 00:18:55.740 --> 00:19:06.480 Yeah, man, I mean, at some point, like, if I were talking to a VC, I would probably have some, like, magic answer of, like, but actually – and then flip it on its head. 00:19:06.680 --> 00:19:07.840 But, no, that kind of sucks. 00:19:08.080 --> 00:19:09.180 Like, I actually don't know. 00:19:09.460 --> 00:19:13.760 The best we could do is, like, you know, I think that the entire world is going to be AI assisted. 00:19:14.420 --> 00:19:16.700 So I think that what I'm doing is pretty interesting. 00:19:17.020 --> 00:19:19.880 I think that the whole entire education system is probably going to change. 00:19:20.020 --> 00:19:21.060 It's going to be forced to change. 00:19:21.460 --> 00:19:23.500 I think that's kind of exciting to be on the other side of that. 00:19:24.700 --> 00:19:30.200 And, yeah, so I'm going to keep doing what we're doing, and we'll see how that goes. 00:19:30.360 --> 00:19:32.060 But, yeah, you're totally right. 00:19:32.320 --> 00:19:34.260 I mean, I noticed it as well. 00:19:34.820 --> 00:19:38.160 Like, regulatory capture is, like – I mean, it's kind of like the playbook, right? 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:39.120 You get as big as you can. 00:19:39.180 --> 00:19:39.900 You become a monopoly. 00:19:40.080 --> 00:19:43.820 You try to, like, rewrite it so nobody else can compete with you. 00:19:44.060 --> 00:19:47.300 And then you just kind of coast and become the biggest company. 00:19:47.560 --> 00:19:49.900 Like, you know, it's, like, it's not fun. 00:19:50.060 --> 00:19:51.740 But it's also not new. 00:19:52.620 --> 00:20:00.600 I find it really interesting that they acted so quickly on this front just because when you look at the crypto industry being regulated, it's taken forever. 00:20:01.260 --> 00:20:04.740 Like, it's been, like, a decade, and there hasn't been, like, concrete answers. 00:20:05.640 --> 00:20:10.420 And with, like, Coinbase is really the only company pushing for answers in any manner. 00:20:10.540 --> 00:20:15.500 I think they actually sued the government, one of the – I forget which branch or, like, what division. 00:20:16.140 --> 00:20:17.620 But, like, hey, like, give us some answers. 00:20:17.840 --> 00:20:18.720 Like, we want to comply. 00:20:18.740 --> 00:20:18.960 Dude, yeah. 00:20:19.620 --> 00:20:20.460 It's messed up. 00:20:20.460 --> 00:20:27.520 And it wasn't – because I think Sam Bankman-Fried is, like, the second highest donor ever to the U.S. government, I think. 00:20:28.360 --> 00:20:28.820 On paper. 00:20:29.140 --> 00:20:30.240 With a paper trail, yeah. 00:20:30.700 --> 00:20:31.040 Yeah, yeah. 00:20:31.640 --> 00:20:32.040 True. 00:20:32.300 --> 00:20:39.020 But, yeah, and despite SPF's all that money, like, it doesn't seem like we got that many answers. 00:20:39.980 --> 00:20:40.460 And – 00:20:40.460 --> 00:20:45.820 Well, I think his play was that he was trying to do regulatory capture as well, but for himself. 00:20:46.040 --> 00:20:46.840 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:20:46.840 --> 00:20:48.700 But then, you know, L kind of fell apart. 00:20:48.800 --> 00:20:51.900 He actually just got convicted – it was, like, one of the shortest trials ever. 00:20:52.020 --> 00:20:53.600 It was, like, 30 minutes in and out. 00:20:53.700 --> 00:20:55.320 Jury's, like, guilty on everything. 00:20:55.320 --> 00:20:56.940 He got convicted on all counts, too. 00:20:56.940 --> 00:20:57.120 Yeah, yeah. 00:20:57.260 --> 00:21:01.860 It was, like, every single one, which was fucking – he's going to be in jail until, like – 00:21:01.860 --> 00:21:03.980 It's effectively a life sentence. 00:21:04.180 --> 00:21:06.120 It's, like, over 100 years altogether. 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:07.240 Crazy. 00:21:07.660 --> 00:21:12.300 Which I think a lot of other people were surprised about because everyone was, like, oh, you know, government's corrupt. 00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:13.200 He donated all this money. 00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:13.940 He's going to be fine. 00:21:14.380 --> 00:21:14.580 Yeah. 00:21:15.380 --> 00:21:18.680 But then, I guess the other side of it, people were saying, like, well, 00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:20.900 it's not just, like, donating, giving people money. 00:21:20.980 --> 00:21:22.080 It's, like, also about the leverage. 00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:23.700 Like, what blackmail do you have on them? 00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:29.060 And I just finished watching Succession, so I was thinking, like, oh, that's kind of an interesting take. 00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:30.440 Wait, is that actually what happens? 00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:31.800 Wait, can you educate me on that? 00:21:31.800 --> 00:21:38.720 Do, like, rich, powerful people, like, is there actually evidence of them having blackmail on these government officials? 00:21:39.600 --> 00:21:43.280 I mean, the most popular and infamous cases, Donald Trump in Russia, right? 00:21:43.460 --> 00:21:49.780 Like, the theory is that he went over to Russia, got honey trapped, and, you know, they recorded him. 00:21:49.780 --> 00:21:50.740 I totally believe that, too. 00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:51.660 I totally believe that, too. 00:21:51.660 --> 00:21:51.680 I believe it, too. 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:53.840 Like, it's an extremely plausible story. 00:21:53.980 --> 00:21:58.180 Like, I think a lot of times when people, you know, these are conspiracy theories. 00:21:58.340 --> 00:21:59.680 Like, that sounds like something he would do. 00:21:59.740 --> 00:22:01.040 That sounds like something Russia would do. 00:22:01.420 --> 00:22:04.820 It would make sense why he was so buddy-buddy with Putin during his presidency. 00:22:05.480 --> 00:22:13.280 And so, like, you know, that's just a high-profile case, but I'm sure that kind of stuff, like, all these politicians have dirt on each other. 00:22:13.500 --> 00:22:17.500 And, like, the main thing preventing them from coming out with it is, like, they also have dirt on themselves. 00:22:17.700 --> 00:22:26.260 And even with, like, the Epstein case, which was never resolved, and, like, the entire American peoples were all like, hey, release the list, release the list. 00:22:26.300 --> 00:22:28.100 And they're like, nope, we're not going to release the list. 00:22:28.100 --> 00:22:34.460 It's just, like, you know, these skeletons, like, except for the rich and powerful, it's not the skeletons. 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:40.600 It's, like, giant, behemoth dinosaur bones in their closets that, you know, we'll never see. 00:22:40.700 --> 00:22:52.320 But I feel like it's – this is really simplified, but I saw this, like, chart where it shows, like, here's how people behave when you're, like, extremely poor, like, middle class and well-off. 00:22:52.580 --> 00:23:01.540 And then the well-off section and the extremely poor section still – they share a lot of parallels in the sense that, like, who you know is one of the most important, but for different reasons. 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:04.600 So when, like, you're really poor, you need to know people just to survive. 00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:15.940 Like, you need to borrow someone's lawnmower, get your neighbor to babysit the kids, you know, take someone's car for a job interview, and your neighborhood becomes, like, an extension as part of your resources. 00:23:16.620 --> 00:23:16.980 Right. 00:23:17.040 --> 00:23:29.560 When you're really wealthy, you don't need any of that, but you also don't care about your career as much because, like, if you come from wealth or, like, a family money, then it's like, okay, well, do you know, like, Beyonce? 00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:33.900 Are you friends with, like, I don't know, LeBron? 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:36.020 You've been on Jeff Bezos' second mega yacht. 00:23:36.220 --> 00:23:38.200 That's where all the business dealings occur. 00:23:38.520 --> 00:23:38.920 Exactly. 00:23:39.120 --> 00:23:43.780 So it's, like, at that point, you know, I don't know anyone in that wealth category. 00:23:43.940 --> 00:23:52.880 Like, I know some billionaires on paper who haven't been able – or not liquid, but, like, I don't know any actual rich people in the upper echelon of, like – 00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:57.480 I mean, you're probably the closest person because you have a semi-connection to Jason, but I don't even think he's a billionaire. 00:23:57.720 --> 00:23:58.240 I think he's – 00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:00.640 He's a – he's famously a centi-millionaire. 00:24:00.660 --> 00:24:01.700 Yeah, a centi-millionaire. 00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:02.420 He calls himself a centi-millionaire. 00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:06.420 Out of the other three members who are billionaires on this podcast. 00:24:06.580 --> 00:24:07.880 I don't know if Sachs – is Sachs a billionaire? 00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:08.700 I'm not entirely sure. 00:24:08.900 --> 00:24:12.820 I think in terms of wealth, Tramath is the wealthiest by far. 00:24:12.820 --> 00:24:16.980 And then it goes Sachs and Freeberg are probably somewhat equal. 00:24:17.660 --> 00:24:26.740 And then Jason – I mean, it's – I think it's both funny and somewhat unnecessary, but, like, that they shit on Jason for being the poorest. 00:24:27.280 --> 00:24:31.300 But it's not, like, them having wealth matters a whole lot. 00:24:31.420 --> 00:24:35.200 Like, they're at the stage where it's, like, gaining more wealth to gain it, I guess. 00:24:35.760 --> 00:24:36.640 So, I don't know. 00:24:38.800 --> 00:24:49.960 Yeah, yeah, no, I do think that Jason is – like, his Uber story is pretty crazy where he joined the angel round of Uber and he got, like, a 4,000x return on his money. 00:24:51.600 --> 00:24:57.020 But, yeah, I do respect Jason as well because he's, like – he was an entrepreneur before he was an investor. 00:24:57.160 --> 00:24:59.740 So, he's, like, an operator and a builder and an investor. 00:25:00.500 --> 00:25:08.780 Whereas, yeah, I mean, like, if we just go more generally into investors, like, there are some investors that have – 00:25:08.780 --> 00:25:09.880 I've never built startups before. 00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:16.980 And I think that of the ones I've interacted with, I'm not as big of a fan of them, generally. 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:26.200 Yeah, I guess, like, in terms of the returns for all of their funds, because, like, most – Sachs has a fund, Jason has a fund. 00:25:26.860 --> 00:25:28.380 I think Chamath has a fund as well. 00:25:28.940 --> 00:25:31.840 I don't know if Freeberg actually has a fund or if he just builds companies. 00:25:32.580 --> 00:25:33.680 But it doesn't – 00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:34.440 I think he invests. 00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:35.940 I don't know if he has a fund, but I think he invests. 00:25:35.940 --> 00:25:39.980 Yeah, he invests, like, his personal money, but it's not like – he doesn't, like, hire people. 00:25:40.280 --> 00:25:41.600 And it's not, like, his main thing. 00:25:41.660 --> 00:25:44.180 Whereas, like, the other three, it feels like that's their main thing at this point. 00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:45.140 Right. 00:25:45.940 --> 00:25:50.900 And it doesn't seem like, as far as I know, any of them are doing that well with their investments. 00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:52.360 Like, Freeberg actually made a comment. 00:25:52.460 --> 00:25:54.920 He's like, oh, yeah, you know, you tally up all my investments. 00:25:55.140 --> 00:26:00.140 I made, like, pretty much the same as a B500 over the past decade or whatever. 00:26:00.320 --> 00:26:04.260 And these are people who have access to, like, all the deals, like, the Uber-esque deals. 00:26:04.620 --> 00:26:04.780 Yeah. 00:26:04.780 --> 00:26:06.360 Like, if they want a deal, they could probably get in. 00:26:07.080 --> 00:26:07.280 Right. 00:26:08.060 --> 00:26:09.340 So, I guess – I don't know. 00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:16.660 At that point, it's, like, kind of ties back into what you said earlier, but, like, hubris of, like, getting rid of your ego. 00:26:16.660 --> 00:26:28.180 But I still think that, like, especially for people who've been on top for so long, who've done so well in their careers, the mindset is always, like, oh, well, you know, this is another thing that I'll gain expertise in and I'll do really well. 00:26:28.700 --> 00:26:34.820 But the results have shown that it hasn't been great, to my knowledge. 00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:45.000 Like, I don't know what their personal – their books look like on the internals, but from, like, tech getting destroyed, both public and private, much more so in the past year, effectively. 00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:50.480 So, I'd be surprised to see if they have been outperforming. 00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:52.000 Yeah. 00:26:52.080 --> 00:26:57.500 I mean, I don't know who – I think Munger recently was on a podcast and was saying, like, VC is basically just, like, gambling. 00:26:57.980 --> 00:26:58.180 Yeah. 00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:09.200 And it's, like, pretty glorified, which, you know, as someone who's been rejected by many VCs, that's, like, makes me somewhat happy to hear that they don't really know what they're doing. 00:27:09.540 --> 00:27:16.120 Obviously, there are probably some firms that know what they're doing, like Sequoia or Andreessen Horowitz. 00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:25.340 Although, lately, you know, it's not entirely sure if lately they're doing that well, but it seems like they have some track record of knowing how to make smart investments. 00:27:25.700 --> 00:27:32.720 But, yeah, I think the funny thing is, like, Chamath had, like – he once compared his returns in one of his, like, Shepard or Lowe's. 00:27:33.060 --> 00:27:45.460 Like, if we're talking about a little bit of ego, Chamath definitely has – but, like, at the same time, Chamath was the brain behind Facebook's growth, getting to, like, a billion users. 00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:47.580 And I don't want to underplay that either. 00:27:47.780 --> 00:27:50.120 You know, it's easy to kind of, like – he's made his money. 00:27:50.520 --> 00:27:51.860 He's now chilling. 00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:58.000 He's in Italy all the time with his beautiful wife, and, like, he's having – he's just drinking wine and gambling. 00:27:58.280 --> 00:28:01.380 So, it's unclear whether he still has that, like, fire. 00:28:01.780 --> 00:28:04.600 But when he did have that fire, he was, like, pretty scary. 00:28:05.060 --> 00:28:09.160 He was able to make Facebook, like, one of the fastest-growing startups in history, which is pretty nuts. 00:28:09.700 --> 00:28:14.000 Yeah, so, like, a bit more, I guess, background Chamath for listeners slash viewers. 00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:17.260 He was a really early employee at Facebook. 00:28:17.720 --> 00:28:20.080 He effectively founded the data science team. 00:28:20.920 --> 00:28:23.800 He kind of created data science, what it is today, right? 00:28:24.200 --> 00:28:25.080 That's his claim. 00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:27.740 I don't know how true that is, but that is his claim. 00:28:28.320 --> 00:28:36.580 And then he was also a really early investor in Bitcoin, one of the very early people to kind of call that being a big thing. 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:43.160 And, yeah, he's the wealthiest person on the pod, and was actually the original reason I even tuned in in the first place. 00:28:43.260 --> 00:28:44.520 Like, I didn't know any of the other guys. 00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:45.280 Right. 00:28:45.460 --> 00:28:53.180 And so, like, for all the crap that he gets and all the, like, statements that he makes on Twitter where he gets kind of dunked on to, like, the one that David was referring to. 00:28:53.260 --> 00:28:56.700 He's like, oh, yeah, comparing my fund to Buffett's. 00:28:56.960 --> 00:28:58.080 And people were like, dude. 00:28:59.940 --> 00:29:00.980 Because it wasn't quite – 00:29:00.980 --> 00:29:01.760 He don't do it no more. 00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:03.560 He doesn't do it anymore. 00:29:03.820 --> 00:29:05.620 Yeah, because he got wrecked. 00:29:05.960 --> 00:29:06.100 Yeah. 00:29:06.100 --> 00:29:10.120 But, yeah, I mean, he's definitely done a lot of great things. 00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:13.340 And he also has made some pretty outlandish statements. 00:29:13.500 --> 00:29:19.300 I think the above the line, below the line thing was pretty big for a while during the whole Ukraine thing. 00:29:19.820 --> 00:29:20.020 Yeah. 00:29:21.080 --> 00:29:22.880 But, yeah, I mean – 00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:24.260 I disagree with that statement. 00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:31.920 But at the same time, I kind of, like – the fact that those statements exist kind of shows that these people are just, like – they genuinely just get together and just talk shit. 00:29:32.080 --> 00:29:33.900 And they just talk, like, what's really on their mind. 00:29:34.380 --> 00:29:36.160 And I think that's what Chamath really believes. 00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:39.060 And it's pretty bad the way he phrased it. 00:29:39.540 --> 00:29:49.120 You know, but I do think we miss, like – like, there's too much varnish and there's too much, like, carefully crafted things, like, in terms of media right now. 00:29:49.340 --> 00:30:02.660 And I do feel like the All In podcast is – it genuinely feels like they could – like, at any given week, they could say something that's just, like, really – that's actually somewhat – like, that's actually kind of edgy. 00:30:02.860 --> 00:30:07.320 And actually could be outrageous, but something that they actually believe in, maybe needs to be heard. 00:30:07.580 --> 00:30:09.420 In that case, I think he shouldn't have said that. 00:30:09.500 --> 00:30:15.740 But, like, there's some cases where, like, they say something that maybe mainstream media, like, is too afraid to kind of dive into, which I think is nice. 00:30:16.180 --> 00:30:16.360 Yeah. 00:30:16.460 --> 00:30:22.840 I feel like from that point onwards, all the members have been a lot more guarded and more resourced. 00:30:22.840 --> 00:30:23.380 Oh, you think so? 00:30:23.620 --> 00:30:23.860 Yeah. 00:30:24.060 --> 00:30:24.320 Okay. 00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:24.820 Yeah. 00:30:24.820 --> 00:30:30.120 Like, I think – and that was also kind of where they started a lot of their own growth for that podcast. 00:30:30.260 --> 00:30:36.500 Like, I think that was somewhat of a turning point where they were starting to gain steam and become, like, really one of the top podcasts in the world. 00:30:36.600 --> 00:30:43.520 And now I think they're kind of cemently, you know, top two or three in terms of, like, business, tech, political stuff. 00:30:43.860 --> 00:30:52.120 But at that point – I feel like the podcasts before that point were a bit more candid, whereas now it's, like, they've received so much blowback from that one. 00:30:53.540 --> 00:30:58.260 And then even, like, Saks getting a lot of pushback for a lot of his statements. 00:30:58.480 --> 00:31:01.360 And now he effectively has, like, a team who does the research for him. 00:31:01.420 --> 00:31:02.460 And he'll, like, show all the research. 00:31:02.660 --> 00:31:07.080 And, like, each one of his statements he makes, he has so much, like, supporting history and facts. 00:31:07.280 --> 00:31:09.200 You can't listen to the podcast anymore, right? 00:31:09.260 --> 00:31:10.560 Because it's always, like, throw up that graph. 00:31:10.900 --> 00:31:12.960 And then, like, if you're listening, you're like, fuck. 00:31:13.120 --> 00:31:14.160 Yeah, like, what is going on? 00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:15.420 Yeah, I don't know what's happening. 00:31:16.380 --> 00:31:18.420 Yeah, so it's – I agree with you. 00:31:18.460 --> 00:31:22.540 I really enjoyed the show in the past because I felt like there was a lot of candor. 00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:23.480 There was a lot of things. 00:31:23.700 --> 00:31:27.000 And, like, you know, these are rich dudes who were, like, even if they cancel, who cares, really? 00:31:27.140 --> 00:31:30.360 Because worst thing, they go back to their lives doing their VC stuff. 00:31:30.900 --> 00:31:31.040 Right. 00:31:32.280 --> 00:31:42.840 But, yeah, I do feel like they have a certain, like, influence in Washington now because so many people listen and so many official, like, rich and important people listen to it. 00:31:42.840 --> 00:31:47.260 But I also think that there is, like you kind of said, previously there wasn't a veneer. 00:31:47.340 --> 00:31:48.620 I feel like there definitely is one now. 00:31:48.820 --> 00:31:50.660 Like, it's not – there's, like, more stuff. 00:31:50.660 --> 00:31:50.860 That's fair. 00:31:51.180 --> 00:31:52.040 I think that's fair, yeah. 00:31:53.500 --> 00:31:56.940 And, yeah, I guess that does suck. 00:31:57.300 --> 00:32:01.060 I mean, like, it sounds like you're pretty disappointed by the veneer thing as well. 00:32:01.140 --> 00:32:03.340 So do you, like, not listen or not like it as much anymore? 00:32:03.600 --> 00:32:05.040 I don't listen as often anymore. 00:32:05.240 --> 00:32:10.780 Like, I'll maybe tune in sometimes when I'm really bored and thinking, like, okay, I haven't seen it all in for a bit. 00:32:10.780 --> 00:32:13.400 And I'll skip through, like, the parts that I'm somewhat interested in. 00:32:14.780 --> 00:32:16.500 But, like, yeah, I don't know. 00:32:16.580 --> 00:32:19.960 I feel like they kind of – it almost peaked with that controversy in my mind. 00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:20.780 Damn. 00:32:22.040 --> 00:32:27.480 But, you know, by the numbers, they're still doing, obviously, much better than they were before. 00:32:27.620 --> 00:32:34.980 But I guess, like, for me, I think the part that I enjoyed the most was, like, you said them speaking their minds. 00:32:35.060 --> 00:32:37.440 And, like, when Tremont said that, maybe he didn't phrase it in the best way. 00:32:37.540 --> 00:32:39.520 But, you know, it was obvious that's what he felt. 00:32:39.760 --> 00:32:39.900 Yeah. 00:32:39.980 --> 00:32:42.800 Like, it was his real true feelings. 00:32:43.380 --> 00:32:43.520 Yeah. 00:32:43.580 --> 00:32:49.240 I do think – it kind of, like – I think it's a reason why people like Joe Rogan a lot. 00:32:49.420 --> 00:32:54.940 So even though he's not, like, the most informed person, he just says stuff, like, very clearly, like, without – 00:32:54.940 --> 00:32:56.160 It's just refreshing, right? 00:32:56.240 --> 00:32:56.420 Right. 00:32:56.420 --> 00:32:57.600 It's just kind of refreshing to hear that. 00:32:57.600 --> 00:32:57.760 Right. 00:32:57.880 --> 00:32:59.060 Like, with all the BS, right? 00:32:59.100 --> 00:33:01.900 Like, everyone in media, it's, like, so much BS. 00:33:03.740 --> 00:33:13.920 And I think, kind of transitioning a bit, it's interesting to see the propaganda and, like, how tales get spun in the different, like, hemispheres of the world. 00:33:14.020 --> 00:33:20.460 So, like, in the West, I mean, I think most people at this point know there's, like, a certain level of propaganda in the news. 00:33:20.460 --> 00:33:22.920 And then in Europe, like, the news is quite a bit different. 00:33:23.580 --> 00:33:33.100 And then Chinese news or a lot of Asian news, which people don't typically have access to over here because, like, language barrier and why would they even look over there, also is, like, very different. 00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:43.380 And, like, I have relatives who are still in China, grandparents or parents, I guess, who, like, listen to a lot of more, like, Asian news or just global news. 00:33:43.640 --> 00:33:58.980 And it's really interesting to see the kind of stuff that gets reported on and, like, the slant that the article has and even how, like, reporting now, like, they're in such a race to be breaking news that they'll, like, cite tweets or, like, just completely false information. 00:33:59.240 --> 00:34:02.960 But they're, like, oh, shoot, this other news organization, they just published this article. 00:34:03.040 --> 00:34:03.500 We got to go. 00:34:03.800 --> 00:34:04.560 Like, we got to get off this. 00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:06.020 Like, we can't be falling behind. 00:34:06.140 --> 00:34:07.300 And it's kind of crazy. 00:34:07.520 --> 00:34:08.820 Yeah, incentives are really weird, right? 00:34:08.820 --> 00:34:14.520 Like, if, like, I was thinking about the other day, I was wondering, like, how can you even fix the news? 00:34:14.700 --> 00:34:18.120 How can you fix, like, how can you fix those incentives? 00:34:18.500 --> 00:34:28.340 Where, like, if the incentive is always to drive the most traffic, drive the most clicks, then you're always going to be, one, to be engaging in that behavior of, like, one, it has to be breaking. 00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:32.560 And, two, you want to be getting the most salacious things out. 00:34:32.900 --> 00:34:32.980 Right. 00:34:33.040 --> 00:34:37.700 So if it's breaking and salacious, that combination is pretty dangerous because a lot of times it's just going to be wrong. 00:34:38.580 --> 00:34:40.160 Like, later down the line. 00:34:40.300 --> 00:34:45.960 But if you don't engage in that, then you will definitely just have less subscriptions. 00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:50.020 And, like, news organizations are already dying. 00:34:50.240 --> 00:34:55.640 Like, they're not really able to monetize properly anymore because there's just abundance of information for free everywhere. 00:34:56.300 --> 00:34:59.960 And so if you don't engage in that, you'll accelerate your own demise even faster. 00:35:00.060 --> 00:35:02.900 So I don't even know, like, what the solution to that is, which is kind of sad. 00:35:04.780 --> 00:35:07.220 Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's no even solution here. 00:35:07.220 --> 00:35:08.620 It's just a comment of, like, it's just kind of sad. 00:35:08.680 --> 00:35:09.540 I don't know how to fix that. 00:35:10.460 --> 00:35:12.680 Yeah, I don't think it'll ever be fixed, really. 00:35:12.840 --> 00:35:19.120 Just, like, unless you fix human behavior or psychology itself, it's, like, that's always going to be a thing driving eyeballs. 00:35:19.260 --> 00:35:26.160 And even, like, when you look at the most popular streamers in the world, it's, like, iShowSpeed, Aiden Ross. 00:35:26.380 --> 00:35:30.780 Like, their appeal is because they're so outrageous. 00:35:31.120 --> 00:35:33.140 And to, like, the younger audience, like, that's what they want. 00:35:33.300 --> 00:35:36.060 Like, they're, like, this generation's Logan Paul. 00:35:36.200 --> 00:35:37.560 Like, Logan Paul used to be that guy. 00:35:38.080 --> 00:35:38.300 Right. 00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:42.040 But now he's kind of older, so it can't really be that guy anymore. 00:35:42.260 --> 00:35:47.200 It's, like, getting weird because he's a dude in his 30s who's appealing to, you know, young teens. 00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:47.920 Like, that doesn't work. 00:35:48.020 --> 00:35:51.200 So it's, like, you need a new generation of young teens who... 00:35:51.200 --> 00:35:53.520 And I don't know who was Logan Paul before him. 00:35:54.500 --> 00:35:55.060 Maybe, like... 00:35:55.060 --> 00:35:55.380 I don't know. 00:35:55.380 --> 00:35:57.080 It's probably, like, who was before Logan Paul. 00:35:57.180 --> 00:35:59.200 Maybe, like, maybe before YouTube. 00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:01.260 Maybe, like, the Paris Hiltons, the Lindsay Lohans. 00:36:01.520 --> 00:36:01.860 I don't know. 00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:02.380 I don't even know. 00:36:02.680 --> 00:36:07.180 Yeah, it's, like, social media wasn't really much of a thing before then, I guess. 00:36:07.220 --> 00:36:10.140 So, like, there wasn't really a chance for anyone to be that. 00:36:10.740 --> 00:36:10.980 Yeah. 00:36:12.140 --> 00:36:12.540 But... 00:36:12.540 --> 00:36:16.220 On that comment of just, like, social media, it's also weird, too. 00:36:16.220 --> 00:36:25.800 Like, if you look at Mr. Beast's thumbnails or, like, Mr. Beast's videos, like, this guy is, like, probably the world's foremost leading expert on, like, thumbnails. 00:36:26.300 --> 00:36:34.260 And what it's devolved to is just, like, a super spray-painted, like, his face going, like, just, like, a bewildered face. 00:36:35.340 --> 00:36:38.720 And, yeah, I mean, that's, like, that is the gold standard. 00:36:38.860 --> 00:36:41.300 That is the best thumbnail you could possibly make in the world. 00:36:41.400 --> 00:36:52.360 And it's just, like, a clickbait, you know, like, crazy death trap or, like, a mega, mega, mega yacht or a mansion in Mississippi going, like, just really surprised by it. 00:36:52.600 --> 00:36:57.660 And, yeah, I mean, theoretically, everybody should be doing that, right? 00:36:57.720 --> 00:37:03.960 Everybody should be making, like, the craziest thumbnail they could and then just, like, acting like their mind is literally being fucking blown by the thumbnail. 00:37:04.300 --> 00:37:08.160 And then that's kind of a weird world to live in where, like, it's all thumbnails look like that. 00:37:08.720 --> 00:37:09.820 And, yeah. 00:37:10.280 --> 00:37:10.720 I don't know. 00:37:10.760 --> 00:37:11.300 Are we getting old? 00:37:11.380 --> 00:37:13.340 I feel like we're just not making commentary on, like, how shitty. 00:37:13.620 --> 00:37:14.780 Should we talk about some positive stuff? 00:37:16.680 --> 00:37:26.060 Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because, like, even Mr. Beast is, like, has a controversial side now where people are like, oh, it's, like, exploitation content. 00:37:26.200 --> 00:37:27.060 You're exploiting the poor. 00:37:27.180 --> 00:37:27.680 You're exploiting the blood. 00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:30.400 And I think it's, like, well, that is technically true. 00:37:30.620 --> 00:37:32.900 Like, he's still technically helping people, though, right? 00:37:32.900 --> 00:37:36.820 It's, like, yeah, he's getting some personal benefit, but so are these people being helped. 00:37:37.060 --> 00:37:37.380 It's, like. 00:37:37.460 --> 00:37:37.800 Oh, yeah. 00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:51.020 I mean, and even if not, like, there were always shows, like, Fear Factor or Survivor where, like, there were always kind of exploitation of, like, people's, like, emotions and things on the line that they either get or don't get. 00:37:51.220 --> 00:37:53.800 And, you know, Mr. Beast is a one-man production company. 00:37:53.860 --> 00:37:54.680 He's not, like, CBS. 00:37:54.940 --> 00:37:56.800 And he was able to kind of build this empire. 00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:10.020 And so now he's getting all this flack when, you know, for all these much larger corporations, they're somehow not really being judged on the same level just because they don't feel like they're friends with the CEO of that corporate. 00:38:10.220 --> 00:38:11.900 But they feel like, oh, I see Mr. Beast all the time. 00:38:11.960 --> 00:38:18.200 I feel like I know him enough to critique these things of him and, like, kind of speak to him in, like, a more candid way. 00:38:18.200 --> 00:38:31.100 And it's, like, I guess that's helped him a lot with his growth because, you know, people watch him religiously but also kind of, I think, is biting him now where they're just really loose with, like, just saying shit to Mr. Beast now. 00:38:31.640 --> 00:38:31.900 Yeah. 00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:41.220 I think at some point he's going to have to step away from an on-camera role because, like, he's at the point where he does have an entire company underneath him and who's doing all this stuff. 00:38:41.340 --> 00:38:43.560 And it's, like, it doesn't actually need to be him. 00:38:43.640 --> 00:38:45.980 It's not like he adds a ton of personality to his videos. 00:38:46.040 --> 00:38:49.780 He's more just, like, hey, I'm the face and I'm explaining the rules and stuff. 00:38:49.860 --> 00:39:00.080 But, like, he could easily hire or even promote one of the existing people who are already on there upwards and more like a host or even, like, switching each of them up and seeing who does well. 00:39:00.740 --> 00:39:00.900 Yeah. 00:39:00.900 --> 00:39:12.860 But I'd be kind of surprised if he continues to do it because, like, I guess I'm trying to think, like, other than him, the vanity factor of him being able to be there. 00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:16.700 Oh, did you ever watch his brother's channel? 00:39:16.900 --> 00:39:19.200 That kind of, like, was a mini version of him? 00:39:19.600 --> 00:39:21.120 Oh, it's technically his older brother. 00:39:21.880 --> 00:39:22.820 I've never seen his older brother. 00:39:22.940 --> 00:39:25.020 I didn't even know he had an older brother. 00:39:25.560 --> 00:39:32.880 So, basically, he, like, set him up with his own channel and he was just doing, like, the almost exact same type of videos. 00:39:33.520 --> 00:39:35.180 And even the crew was similar. 00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:38.260 It was, like, Chandler's brother was part of his, like, cast. 00:39:38.260 --> 00:39:38.800 Holy shit. 00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:40.960 It's like a multiverse kind of Mr. Beast. 00:39:41.260 --> 00:39:42.640 I mean, it was, like, the B team, right? 00:39:42.700 --> 00:39:45.140 You got, like, an A team, Mr. Beast, and then, like, B team. 00:39:45.660 --> 00:39:46.860 This is, like, the spinoff show. 00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:47.200 Exactly. 00:39:47.200 --> 00:39:48.540 For the people who really love the main show. 00:39:48.660 --> 00:39:50.420 It's like the Gen V of the boys kind of. 00:39:50.580 --> 00:39:51.460 Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. 00:39:52.200 --> 00:39:55.100 It did well by, like, objective measures. 00:39:55.320 --> 00:39:57.160 Like, I think he had a couple million subs. 00:39:57.240 --> 00:40:00.320 Each video was getting, like, a couple hundred thousand, maybe, like, low millions. 00:40:00.940 --> 00:40:06.100 But I think that, like, being overshadowed aspect caused him to just quit that thing entirely. 00:40:06.240 --> 00:40:12.180 So, even though, like, if any regular person reached that level of fame with their own videos, they'd be like, oh, this is awesome. 00:40:12.180 --> 00:40:14.840 But because his younger brother is Mr. Beast, he's like, oh, this sucks. 00:40:15.060 --> 00:40:15.700 Like, my life sucks. 00:40:15.780 --> 00:40:16.320 I can't do this. 00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:17.100 Right. 00:40:17.720 --> 00:40:23.580 Yeah, I mean, it's, like, like, comparing yourself to somebody else. 00:40:24.220 --> 00:40:28.920 Like, even Mr. Beast, I think, like, suffers from his own success. 00:40:29.300 --> 00:40:37.720 I think there was at one point where, like, he measures his success based on, like, is his video, like, on, like, his past 10 videos average. 00:40:38.220 --> 00:40:41.620 Like, is this the higher than the average of his past 10 videos or something? 00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:48.620 And I think there was one point where, like, his last 10 videos were, like, the highest, the best performing videos of all time. 00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:59.080 So, like, in order for his next video to beat his average, he would have to be, like, it would have to be one of the, like, fastest videos to, like, 10 million views or something in history. 00:40:59.640 --> 00:41:06.760 And so, you know, it's got to be, I mean, tying it back, like, Logan Paul kind of suffered from that as well because he daily vlogged, right? 00:41:06.820 --> 00:41:16.900 Like, he daily vlogged, every day had to be an insane day, which forces you to do, like, which forces you to find the craziest thing you could do at short notice, fly to countries. 00:41:16.900 --> 00:41:18.620 And, unfortunately, one of the countries he flew to is Japan. 00:41:19.240 --> 00:41:23.900 And, like, he was forced to, like, you know, he saw something outrageous and crazy. 00:41:24.240 --> 00:41:29.540 And then he was forced to outdo his yesterday self, who was, and that yesterday was forced to outdo the day before. 00:41:29.600 --> 00:41:40.960 And, like, it just culminated into him just, like, being in this mindset of being open to filming a dead body and putting it on YouTube, which is, like, if you say the sentence out loud, obviously it's fucking preposterous. 00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:48.920 Right, but, like, you know, Logan Paul isn't, he seems to be a normal human being, like, otherwise. 00:41:48.920 --> 00:41:57.780 So, I think, actually, my controversial take is, like, I think many people, oh, sorry, I don't think everyone would do that if they were in Logan Paul's position. 00:41:57.880 --> 00:42:06.040 But I think more people than you would think would maybe be pushed to do things that currently we think are outside of our comfort zones. 00:42:06.100 --> 00:42:17.620 But when you're in that mindset of, like, got to beat, got to keep setting records, got to keep a new PR every single day, I think you'd be surprised at what you'd be willing to do to kind of do that. 00:42:18.180 --> 00:42:29.660 Yeah, and in that same line, I think a lot of people, they love to virtue signal, they love that feeling, that dopamine, but they don't really take the time to feel any empathy for the actions of others. 00:42:30.060 --> 00:42:34.420 And, like you said, a lot of these actions are probably bad or, like. 00:42:34.780 --> 00:42:36.700 Oh, yeah, I don't support it, let's not get canceled. 00:42:36.860 --> 00:42:40.180 You don't support Logan Paul's decision, but, yeah. 00:42:40.360 --> 00:42:45.780 Definitely detestable, but it's, like, I think no one, most people, anyway, are not, like, the villain of their story. 00:42:45.960 --> 00:42:49.540 Like, you judge everyone else by their actions, but you judge yourself by your intentions. 00:42:49.760 --> 00:42:50.000 Exactly. 00:42:51.280 --> 00:42:57.840 So, it's, like, like you said, there is a path where, you know, in his shoes, you might have done the same things. 00:42:58.860 --> 00:43:03.660 Everyone wants to tell themselves that they would not have, but it's, like, a Stanford prison experiment. 00:43:03.660 --> 00:43:05.360 And, like, stuff like that. 00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:09.720 I think that was kind of debunked, but, like, I think the original thing kind of stands. 00:43:09.960 --> 00:43:10.180 Right. 00:43:10.520 --> 00:43:12.220 The theory, like, kind of makes sense. 00:43:12.340 --> 00:43:18.360 It's, like, you know, once you're given this power and once it's easy to say no and, like, a lot of these systems in place. 00:43:18.580 --> 00:43:25.740 And even looking at, like, the cop and justice system in the U.S. 00:43:25.780 --> 00:43:29.180 It's, like, there's a lot of bad cops and they're, like, oh, you know, they're all rotten, blah, blah, blah. 00:43:29.680 --> 00:43:33.600 And it's, like, well, if you were a cop and you're trying to go in the system and fix things, like, you'd probably get fired. 00:43:33.780 --> 00:43:37.820 Like, you have no idea how that system is set up and how it got to be the way it was. 00:43:37.880 --> 00:43:41.920 It's, like, it's really easy to make a snap judgment without knowing any of it. 00:43:42.540 --> 00:43:42.660 Yeah. 00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:44.900 But, yeah, I don't know. 00:43:45.780 --> 00:43:49.580 I mean, I guess, like, speaking on, trying to speak of more positive things. 00:43:49.920 --> 00:43:50.520 Let's do it. 00:43:51.120 --> 00:43:56.900 I feel like each of the positive things that I just thought about also have, like, a slight negative twist depending on who you are. 00:43:57.020 --> 00:43:58.680 But, like, I guess that's everything these days. 00:43:58.920 --> 00:44:02.040 So, like, just kind of bring it back to more, like, AI stuff. 00:44:02.120 --> 00:44:12.060 And, like, I think that people who are in a lot of the creative fields are going to get wrecked, like, horribly, horribly wrecked in the next couple of years. 00:44:12.460 --> 00:44:13.360 Wait, how is this positive? 00:44:14.700 --> 00:44:18.120 Well, so the positive side, I led with the negative. 00:44:18.120 --> 00:44:23.720 The positive side is it's going to be a lot easier for people to be entrepreneurial. 00:44:24.160 --> 00:44:36.860 So I think that a lot of these AI-assisted tools will allow people to essentially be, like, not one man, but, like, you know, a really small team and make a fairly robust product that's desired by a lot of people. 00:44:36.860 --> 00:44:39.940 So, like, even, like, making, like, a small indie game. 00:44:40.220 --> 00:44:47.320 Before, you would need, like, artists and music composers and graphic designers and UI people and programmers and everything. 00:44:47.460 --> 00:44:55.420 And now you could, it'll still take a really, really long time, but feasibly you could do that with one person in, like, a fraction of the time. 00:44:55.740 --> 00:44:57.080 Or maybe you want to write a book. 00:44:57.240 --> 00:44:58.500 You want to make a picture book or something. 00:44:58.660 --> 00:45:03.820 Like, you can even get it to generate the script, to generate the pictures and maybe some fine-tuning. 00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:15.740 And I think that it's, like, a lot of these jobs will still exist, probably at reduced rates, but then it'll free them up to do other, potentially more lucrative things. 00:45:16.420 --> 00:45:17.140 I don't know, it's hard to say. 00:45:17.280 --> 00:45:27.000 I guess it's, like, you know, there's kind of two paths the world can go down, or one leads to, like, a Star Trek utopia, unlimited energy. 00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:30.600 We become a federation and go colonize the stars. 00:45:30.980 --> 00:45:38.320 And the other one is more like a Star Wars-type fascist regime where, you know, things don't go as well. 00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:52.160 But, I don't know, I think with a lot of the technology advancing the way it is, and that with, like, the fusion energy and just renewables getting a lot of traction, you know, I feel like... 00:45:52.160 --> 00:45:55.280 I think the positive is the consumer wins, right? 00:45:55.300 --> 00:46:04.040 The consumer will now win way more because it'll be easier to edit videos to the high bar of, like, your favorite YouTubers with AI assistants. 00:46:04.040 --> 00:46:12.600 You don't need, like, their 10-person production team or, like, their world-class editor because an AI can just, like, learn their editing style and then chop up your video for you. 00:46:13.140 --> 00:46:22.400 I think it'll be easier to, like, come up with, like, script ideas with, like, ChatGPT, especially if you, like, fine-tune it based upon, like, your style and your twist. 00:46:23.060 --> 00:46:27.200 And, yeah, I think the floor is just going to be, like... 00:46:27.200 --> 00:46:27.720 A lot higher. 00:46:28.120 --> 00:46:28.880 Yeah, a lot higher. 00:46:29.220 --> 00:46:34.320 And that's going to be good because, you know, it's just going to increase competition. 00:46:34.920 --> 00:46:37.080 They'll probably just, like... 00:46:37.080 --> 00:46:37.900 Yeah. 00:46:38.240 --> 00:46:39.320 And for startups, too. 00:46:39.640 --> 00:46:52.400 Like, I feel like small, really small startup teams can now tackle pretty big, like, pretty big pain points without needing, you know, like, without even needing an office. 00:46:52.400 --> 00:47:07.040 You could do it fully remote, you could just build an MVP, raise some money, and then basically do the work of, like, what would previously would take, like, 10x the size of your team and now do it in a comparable amount of time. 00:47:07.100 --> 00:47:09.940 And I think that's, like, really scary for incumbents. 00:47:10.100 --> 00:47:24.980 You know, anytime I talk to, like, any public company or, like, I'm always pretty disappointed with, like, these larger companies because they move, like, at, you know, and it's kind of memed on, like, oh, startups move fast and big companies move slow. 00:47:25.140 --> 00:47:34.740 But, like, they actually move so ridiculously slow and they have so much bureaucracy that it's so much more exciting to work on a small startup. 00:47:34.960 --> 00:47:42.000 And I think that's, like, it used to be kind of ridiculous to think that a small startup could, like, beat a larger, much better funded company. 00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:54.400 But just by virtue of being smaller and being, like, able to, like, iterate way fast, like, having iterative cycles, like, potentially 100x faster or maybe 1,000x faster, like, that is not something that you want to look over. 00:47:54.900 --> 00:47:57.460 And AI obviously just accelerates that even more. 00:47:58.420 --> 00:47:58.600 Yeah. 00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:01.160 And I think you've captured two of the biggest points. 00:48:01.540 --> 00:48:03.220 And one is, like, the consumer wins. 00:48:03.460 --> 00:48:10.340 So, you know, in the case of Jenny AI, if you're a graduate student, you're in academia, you can write your papers much more effectively. 00:48:11.240 --> 00:48:21.380 Or even, like, in your day-to-day life, like, I actually go to ChatGPT now a lot more often than Google sometimes because, like, say I want to make, like, recipes for something. 00:48:21.640 --> 00:48:23.920 Because SEO is completely fucked on Google. 00:48:24.420 --> 00:48:25.740 All the results you get are trash. 00:48:25.980 --> 00:48:28.460 And they're, like, you don't even find the information that you want. 00:48:28.460 --> 00:48:30.340 And now they're trying to monetize even more heavily. 00:48:30.940 --> 00:48:35.180 And it's, like, you can get two, three, maybe four ads before, like, a legitimate search result. 00:48:36.840 --> 00:48:37.060 And it's... 00:48:37.060 --> 00:48:37.680 It's disgusting. 00:48:37.920 --> 00:48:38.520 It's disgusting. 00:48:38.820 --> 00:48:39.760 You've seen my latest tweet. 00:48:39.880 --> 00:48:40.640 It's actually gross. 00:48:41.160 --> 00:48:45.960 Like, there are competitors bidding on Jenny AI. 00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:49.900 They'll pay for, like, a sponsored post. 00:48:50.160 --> 00:48:52.300 And they'll make their link just look like Jenny. 00:48:52.300 --> 00:48:56.480 Their link just says Jenny AI, like, AI writing assistance. 00:48:56.720 --> 00:48:58.180 But their site is just not Jenny. 00:48:58.460 --> 00:49:04.480 And I know for a fact that, like, you know, there are people just clicking on it thinking it's Jenny, going to them, subscribing. 00:49:04.920 --> 00:49:06.640 And it's, like, I've... 00:49:06.640 --> 00:49:09.700 We've reported that ad so many times because it's against their terms of service. 00:49:09.700 --> 00:49:12.740 But it's just not being, like, taken seriously. 00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:16.420 And I just feel bad because this is just one anecdotal case. 00:49:16.480 --> 00:49:18.040 I'm sure this is happening, like, all the time. 00:49:18.340 --> 00:49:20.280 Of, like, these sponsored posts are just... 00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:22.160 They're not really what the user wants. 00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:24.560 In this case, it's literally not what they wanted. 00:49:24.620 --> 00:49:25.760 They typed Jenny AI. 00:49:25.760 --> 00:49:26.660 They wanted Jenny. 00:49:26.740 --> 00:49:28.260 And they get taken to somewhere else. 00:49:29.380 --> 00:49:31.980 And, you know, I'm sure this is happening, like, to some degree. 00:49:32.080 --> 00:49:33.080 Maybe even more severe. 00:49:33.980 --> 00:49:37.480 Like, at least this tool is also an education, an ed tech tool. 00:49:37.900 --> 00:49:45.840 But there are probably some cases where, like, for example, my buddy, he runs something called Excel Formula Bot, which is, like, an AI that helps you with Excel. 00:49:46.340 --> 00:49:49.360 But Timu is bidding on it because it has Formula Bot in it. 00:49:49.380 --> 00:49:51.040 So they're selling, like, breast milk formula. 00:49:51.720 --> 00:49:55.220 And they're, like, it's, like, formula, like, selling. 00:49:55.340 --> 00:49:56.000 That's the sponsored post. 00:49:56.020 --> 00:49:58.700 So imagine, like, you hear about Excel Formula Bot. 00:49:58.760 --> 00:49:59.520 Maybe you don't know much about it. 00:49:59.540 --> 00:50:00.500 You click the Timu link. 00:50:01.140 --> 00:50:04.300 And now you're, as a user, you're just, like, what a terrible experience. 00:50:04.380 --> 00:50:05.600 You're just, like, super confused. 00:50:06.100 --> 00:50:08.420 You're now wondering whether you need to buy this baby formula or not. 00:50:08.460 --> 00:50:09.500 Is this what your friend was talking about? 00:50:09.540 --> 00:50:10.120 Probably not. 00:50:10.520 --> 00:50:11.160 You have to go back. 00:50:11.220 --> 00:50:12.120 You wasted some time. 00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:13.820 And it's just terrible. 00:50:14.120 --> 00:50:14.740 So, yeah. 00:50:15.040 --> 00:50:15.220 Sorry. 00:50:15.300 --> 00:50:15.440 Continue. 00:50:15.500 --> 00:50:16.200 I don't want to interrupt you. 00:50:16.280 --> 00:50:16.480 Continue. 00:50:16.620 --> 00:50:18.880 But, like, it's fucked right now with Google. 00:50:19.240 --> 00:50:21.600 No, I mean, you completely hit the nail on the head. 00:50:21.860 --> 00:50:26.440 And I think it's, like, if you know someone within the company, they might be able to help 00:50:26.440 --> 00:50:26.800 you out. 00:50:26.880 --> 00:50:29.620 But going through the normal support channels, like, there's no way. 00:50:29.760 --> 00:50:29.900 Yeah. 00:50:29.900 --> 00:50:30.580 Like, good luck. 00:50:31.260 --> 00:50:37.820 Which is funny because, like, one time I had a Twitter handle hacked. 00:50:38.500 --> 00:50:40.920 And, you know, I tried going through all these normal support measures. 00:50:41.100 --> 00:50:43.680 And then I literally just contacted my friend who worked at Twitter. 00:50:43.800 --> 00:50:45.040 I'm, like, dude, can you help me out? 00:50:45.480 --> 00:50:45.620 Yeah. 00:50:45.680 --> 00:50:47.160 And, like, I got the account back immediately. 00:50:47.780 --> 00:50:50.380 And it's just, like, I don't know. 00:50:50.560 --> 00:50:50.800 It's. 00:50:51.160 --> 00:50:52.260 It's a nepotism, man. 00:50:52.460 --> 00:50:52.640 It's. 00:50:52.700 --> 00:50:54.100 The world runs on that kind of, man. 00:50:54.120 --> 00:50:54.500 It does. 00:50:54.660 --> 00:50:55.020 It does. 00:50:55.060 --> 00:50:55.640 It actually does. 00:50:56.100 --> 00:50:59.220 Dude, tying back to, like, what we were saying earlier about when you're really poor or 00:50:59.220 --> 00:51:00.440 really rich, it's just about who you know. 00:51:00.720 --> 00:51:00.920 Yep. 00:51:00.920 --> 00:51:05.740 You know, back in the day, the most important thing, before ChatGPT, there was GPT-3. 00:51:06.440 --> 00:51:12.680 And GPT-3 was, like, possibly one of the most, like, the most powerful tech you could get. 00:51:13.020 --> 00:51:15.200 But you could only get it if you knew someone at OpenAI. 00:51:16.020 --> 00:51:23.360 And so, you know, we were pretty, we were working on this tech. 00:51:23.420 --> 00:51:24.760 We were working in this field for so long. 00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:29.600 And we just couldn't get it until I called one of my friends who was connected with somebody 00:51:29.600 --> 00:51:31.000 in OpenAI, and that got us GPT-3. 00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:36.520 And I think without hyperbole, just that one phone call was probably worth, like, a million 00:51:36.520 --> 00:51:36.880 dollars. 00:51:37.060 --> 00:51:39.860 Like, just getting GPT-3 was worth a million dollars. 00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:43.420 And there's no, like, there's no form you could fill out. 00:51:43.540 --> 00:51:46.140 There's no, like, way you could kind of email the right person. 00:51:46.200 --> 00:51:46.840 Well, maybe there is. 00:51:46.900 --> 00:51:51.740 But, like, it would probably be akin to, like, nepotism where you'd have to email them, impress 00:51:51.740 --> 00:51:54.900 them, become their friend, and then have them give you access. 00:51:55.320 --> 00:51:58.400 So, yeah, it's really, like, eye-opening. 00:51:58.520 --> 00:52:00.740 I'm sure you have a lot of stories about it as well. 00:52:00.780 --> 00:52:03.440 But, like, a lot of it is just who you know. 00:52:03.900 --> 00:52:07.540 Like, can you network effectively to get to the right person, to the decision maker? 00:52:08.020 --> 00:52:10.120 And then player cards right there. 00:52:10.160 --> 00:52:17.860 And then that will unlock, like, insane amounts of value, opportunity, like, lucrative partnerships. 00:52:19.900 --> 00:52:22.040 And that's just how the world kind of works. 00:52:22.420 --> 00:52:23.780 And I don't know how I feel about that. 00:52:23.860 --> 00:52:24.360 It's not good. 00:52:24.440 --> 00:52:25.140 It's definitely not good. 00:52:25.500 --> 00:52:25.500 But. 00:52:27.040 --> 00:52:29.240 So, again, this could be, like, silver lining. 00:52:29.360 --> 00:52:30.640 It depends on who your audience is. 00:52:30.740 --> 00:52:34.080 If you're someone who's really good at networking, who's really social, outgoing, like, this is 00:52:34.080 --> 00:52:34.740 great news for you. 00:52:34.780 --> 00:52:35.500 You're like, oh, awesome. 00:52:35.740 --> 00:52:42.040 Like, and what's hilarious is that some research came out showing that, like, how much your boss 00:52:42.040 --> 00:52:47.200 likes you is more important, like, whoever your immediate manager is, is more important 00:52:47.200 --> 00:52:49.080 than, like, your actual level of work done. 00:52:49.780 --> 00:52:53.540 And so, like, as a manager, like, you're still a human being. 00:52:53.900 --> 00:52:54.540 Like, you have emotions. 00:52:54.740 --> 00:52:56.300 You have a connection with people. 00:52:56.680 --> 00:53:02.780 And so, like, obviously, if one of your people that you manage you like on a personal level, 00:53:02.840 --> 00:53:04.040 you're going to be more lenient with them. 00:53:04.100 --> 00:53:07.520 Just similar to, like, one of your friends, right? 00:53:07.600 --> 00:53:11.680 If someone commits an egregious act, if that person is your friend, you're going to be much 00:53:11.680 --> 00:53:14.740 more lenient with them than if it's, like, some stranger or you don't know your boss. 00:53:14.840 --> 00:53:15.400 I don't know that guy. 00:53:15.460 --> 00:53:15.960 Screw that guy. 00:53:16.520 --> 00:53:17.420 But, like, oh, Ken. 00:53:17.580 --> 00:53:18.300 Like, Ken's my friend. 00:53:18.380 --> 00:53:19.380 Like, yeah, I'm going to help out Ken. 00:53:19.480 --> 00:53:19.600 Yeah. 00:53:20.680 --> 00:53:21.040 Yeah. 00:53:21.880 --> 00:53:23.960 I mean, it's just human nature. 00:53:24.180 --> 00:53:24.560 I agree. 00:53:24.660 --> 00:53:25.860 I mean, I feel like that's your point, right? 00:53:25.880 --> 00:53:26.840 It's, like, it's just human nature. 00:53:26.900 --> 00:53:28.020 We can't really fix it. 00:53:29.340 --> 00:53:30.340 And I guess that's true. 00:53:30.400 --> 00:53:35.020 There are ways, like, once you kind of figure that out, there are ways to kind of capitalize 00:53:35.020 --> 00:53:35.500 on it. 00:53:35.740 --> 00:53:39.000 Like, for example, I do run, like, a marketing agency on the side. 00:53:39.500 --> 00:53:44.460 And you could choose to either just send them one monthly update where it just is epic. 00:53:44.460 --> 00:53:47.560 And you're, like, okay, we grew your social media account by this much. 00:53:47.580 --> 00:53:48.480 And you have this many followers. 00:53:48.560 --> 00:53:49.420 And, like, that feels nice. 00:53:49.680 --> 00:53:50.560 It feels very professional. 00:53:51.100 --> 00:53:55.560 But what actually ends up working way better is you actually message them, like, multiple 00:53:55.560 --> 00:53:56.100 times a week. 00:53:56.240 --> 00:53:59.560 Like, every time you have one video that's, like, popping off or doing well, you send them 00:53:59.560 --> 00:53:59.920 an update. 00:54:00.200 --> 00:54:02.520 And then, like, it becomes more of, like, a friendly nature. 00:54:02.760 --> 00:54:07.320 And you find that, like, the clients that actually renew, they renew much more often when 00:54:07.320 --> 00:54:10.920 you have more of that, like, friendly cadence of, like, you're constantly talking to them. 00:54:11.080 --> 00:54:14.560 And you're constantly, like, they see you as a friend now because you're being, like, casual 00:54:14.560 --> 00:54:15.020 with them. 00:54:15.200 --> 00:54:18.040 And you're showing them how often you're working on it versus, like, more of a 00:54:18.040 --> 00:54:22.940 sturdy, like, here's our pitch deck of, like, why the last 30 days was so successful. 00:54:23.640 --> 00:54:30.240 And so, yeah, I mean, if that is just our human nature and you do kind of want to play 00:54:30.240 --> 00:54:35.440 on, like, if networking is really that important, then it probably is good to, like, level up 00:54:35.440 --> 00:54:39.200 that skill tree that you have because there are actually actionable things you could do 00:54:39.200 --> 00:54:42.700 with that skill tree that, like, will make your life a lot easier. 00:54:43.160 --> 00:54:49.160 Like, even doing the same amount of work, it will make it because in those both of those cases, I did 00:54:49.160 --> 00:54:49.940 the same amount of work. 00:54:50.040 --> 00:54:53.520 It's just, like, like, did when did I send them the message of, like, what I did? 00:54:53.580 --> 00:54:54.860 It's, like, takes an extra 10 seconds, right? 00:54:54.860 --> 00:54:58.880 So it might actually take longer to make the professional looking pitch deck than to actually 00:54:58.880 --> 00:55:00.140 just shoot them a message every time. 00:55:00.260 --> 00:55:05.760 So, yeah, it's just interesting to think about, like, when you look at that lens of, yeah, 00:55:05.960 --> 00:55:09.360 it's pretty, I don't know if I communicate that correctly, but yeah. 00:55:10.100 --> 00:55:14.300 Yeah, I mean, like what you said, it's not necessarily the most effort or the most pristine 00:55:14.300 --> 00:55:15.600 looking thing that gets ahead. 00:55:15.720 --> 00:55:17.580 It's more about, like, having a more of a human touch. 00:55:18.460 --> 00:55:22.300 And then, like, regardless if you're starting your own company or working in the workplace, 00:55:22.620 --> 00:55:26.820 like, the people I see who move up the fastest, it's purely nepotism. 00:55:27.060 --> 00:55:32.420 It's, like, the person who gets hired in as a VP, he brings in all his underlings from 00:55:32.420 --> 00:55:36.260 the previous company, and they all get, like, a title bump, and they all move up with him. 00:55:36.860 --> 00:55:44.440 And, like, even, it's, like, effectively attaching yourself to, like, the local king or queen. 00:55:44.620 --> 00:55:48.500 So it's, like, almost like a mob-esque mob or fiefdom. 00:55:49.160 --> 00:55:49.880 Like a mafia. 00:55:50.280 --> 00:55:50.640 Exactly. 00:55:50.900 --> 00:55:52.820 It's essentially like a pyramid, right? 00:55:52.880 --> 00:55:56.020 There's a dude at a pyramid, but there's multiple pyramids within each company. 00:55:56.460 --> 00:56:01.240 So say a company has a bunch of these pyramids and mafias, right, and you attach yourself 00:56:01.240 --> 00:56:02.240 to the right mob boss. 00:56:02.820 --> 00:56:05.300 And, you know, like, you scratch their back, they're going to scratch yours, they're going 00:56:05.300 --> 00:56:10.220 to bring you along with them to the next, I guess, city would be, like, the next company. 00:56:11.100 --> 00:56:15.140 And that's literally the people who move up the fastest in corporate. 00:56:15.400 --> 00:56:18.840 And it's, like, the brown-nosers, the people who, like, have someone pulling for them. 00:56:18.980 --> 00:56:22.880 Because, like, when it comes to performance review time or getting a promotion, it's literally, 00:56:23.020 --> 00:56:25.780 like, well, how much is your manager or your VP willing to fight for you? 00:56:25.860 --> 00:56:27.260 Because there's a limited number of promotions. 00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:30.240 And so it's, like, there's all of them. 00:56:30.260 --> 00:56:31.700 It's probably a bunch of you who did good work. 00:56:31.780 --> 00:56:32.400 That's, like, the bar. 00:56:32.760 --> 00:56:34.820 But then the next step is, like, well, do they know your name? 00:56:34.820 --> 00:56:36.580 Like, how visible are your projects? 00:56:36.780 --> 00:56:37.920 Like, people like you? 00:56:39.060 --> 00:56:44.840 And an undercurrent of, like, yeah, it's, like, is this the right profile of person we 00:56:44.840 --> 00:56:45.460 want moving up? 00:56:45.520 --> 00:56:46.480 Do you want them to join us? 00:56:47.560 --> 00:56:52.620 Which, again, could be positive or negative, depending on how, what your personality is 00:56:52.620 --> 00:56:52.820 like. 00:56:53.660 --> 00:56:59.340 And it's just because the people, I'll say this, like, one, another example, like, from 00:56:59.340 --> 00:57:02.000 my side is, like, VCs will constantly email me. 00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:06.140 They'll be, like, you know, even if you're not raising right now, we usually know a company, 00:57:06.140 --> 00:57:09.380 like, for six months or a year before we actually invest in them. 00:57:09.860 --> 00:57:13.140 I'm, like, dude, what, like, are you doing your job correctly? 00:57:13.260 --> 00:57:18.880 Like, you have, like, isn't, that is, like, that is kind of nepotism of, like, if you only 00:57:18.880 --> 00:57:23.360 invest in people that you have, like, personal relationships that you've built with, like, 00:57:23.420 --> 00:57:27.960 isn't the point of a VC you can evaluate a company and see, okay, this is, you know, they 00:57:27.960 --> 00:57:30.940 have really good metrics, I believe in this founder, I'm willing to take this bet, and 00:57:30.940 --> 00:57:33.920 I'm going to allocate capital to this team. 00:57:34.740 --> 00:57:40.480 But, you know, it's almost like a threat to me, like, you know, hey, we only invest in 00:57:40.480 --> 00:57:44.140 people that, and they're kind of, like, forcing me to get on these calls with them to, like, 00:57:44.720 --> 00:57:46.760 like, for them to kind of understand my soul. 00:57:47.080 --> 00:57:48.720 Like, it's not even, like, a real pitch, right? 00:57:48.720 --> 00:57:52.220 It's just, like, I tell them about kind of, like, my philosophy and, like, my life. 00:57:52.680 --> 00:57:56.020 You know, I mean, I have a lot of stories where, like, you go to VC meetings, and it feels 00:57:56.020 --> 00:58:02.020 like they'll ask you really kind of unorthodox questions, and, you know, they'll basically 00:58:02.020 --> 00:58:06.160 evaluate you, like, things that really shouldn't matter for a startup. 00:58:06.400 --> 00:58:07.300 Or maybe it does matter. 00:58:07.380 --> 00:58:10.820 Like, maybe it sounds kind of naive because I'm not a VC. 00:58:10.980 --> 00:58:15.500 Maybe actually, like, they've discovered some secret sauce of, like, you know, they need 00:58:15.500 --> 00:58:20.260 to have some trauma in their childhood, and they need to, like, I really don't believe in 00:58:20.260 --> 00:58:24.540 that, I feel like just you want to find the best founders, the best builders that have 00:58:24.540 --> 00:58:28.460 traction, that understand some secret about the market, and they have some mode, and then 00:58:28.460 --> 00:58:31.380 just, like, give them money to let them, like, scale, which obviously is, like, pretty 00:58:31.380 --> 00:58:39.380 reductive, but I definitely don't like the other side of the coin, which is you don't, 00:58:39.480 --> 00:58:43.800 you kind of factor that in, but instead, it's all about who do you know, right? 00:58:43.860 --> 00:58:49.140 Like, often VCs invest in people that, like, either just have, like, a big name, like, 00:58:49.140 --> 00:58:53.620 oh, he was the something, something, chief something at Spotify, you know, oh, he has 00:58:53.620 --> 00:58:59.460 to be so good, or, you know, like, he went to Y Combinator, like, they have to be, right? 00:58:59.520 --> 00:59:06.200 Like, I have friends who, who basically don't have a product, they're pre-product, pre-revenue, 00:59:06.200 --> 00:59:11.400 and they pretty much get the same valuation as us, and we have grown to 2 million users, 00:59:11.640 --> 00:59:17.740 we grow, like, 20% month over month, we have, like, 190,000 MRR, you know, like, it's, 00:59:17.800 --> 00:59:23.780 it's definitely past, like, a pre-product startup, you know, obviously, we kind of get the same 00:59:23.780 --> 00:59:28.000 valuation because, you know, he went to Stanford, he dropped that, or he graduated from Stanford, 00:59:28.120 --> 00:59:34.080 he's in the Bay, he knows all these VCs, he's been to their offices, like, you know, and I love 00:59:34.080 --> 00:59:37.840 this guy, by the way, I don't want to talk shit, like, this guy's a really great, I applaud him for 00:59:37.840 --> 00:59:44.040 actually taking advantage of, like, these things that, that are only available to him, but just, 00:59:44.040 --> 00:59:50.320 like, on a, on a high level, it, it, it just feels not nice, it just feels like something's wrong, 00:59:50.980 --> 00:59:56.340 and, yeah, to your point, like, that's the negative side of it, I just, I spoke of the positive side 00:59:56.340 --> 00:59:59.640 of, like, you know, once you understand it, there are things you could do, actual things you do to 00:59:59.640 --> 01:00:05.140 change, like, how you kind of conduct yourself, which will put you a leg up, but the negative sides 01:00:05.140 --> 01:00:10.780 is, like, you will always kind of, if you're not really heavily, if you're not in the inner circle, 01:00:10.840 --> 01:00:14.820 if you're not in the right mafia, if you're not in the right mob, your life will just be way harder, 01:00:15.080 --> 01:00:18.700 and maybe that's something you just have to accept, but that's the truth, yeah. 01:00:19.060 --> 01:00:23.500 Yeah, it's, like, definitely not even playing field, and, like, that cookie-cutter mold that 01:00:23.500 --> 01:00:28.900 you talked about, when I was a lot younger and still entertained dreams of, like, becoming a tech 01:00:28.900 --> 01:00:31.940 billionaire, it's, like, I saw that all the time, it's, like, well, that dude went to Stanford, 01:00:31.940 --> 01:00:35.800 you know, he got the Facebook job, he got into YC, and then, you know, gets the tech startup, 01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:40.220 that's, like, four-step stage plan. It's just, like, where do I send the check, right, it's, like, 01:00:40.220 --> 01:00:46.340 who do I wire to? And it's kind of funny, because that was actually my plan before, I was, like, oh, 01:00:46.460 --> 01:00:50.820 you know, I'll just go get a Stanford MBA, you know, after Netflix, I'll go to YC, and then after 01:00:50.820 --> 01:00:55.760 YC, I'll do something, but then, you know, I... Why? Why did you not fulfill that? We could have been 01:00:55.760 --> 01:01:01.320 working, basically having the same day-to-day. What happened? I mean, I took my life a different 01:01:01.320 --> 01:01:09.900 direction. I think there's a death in the family, had kids, kind of, you know, re-evaluated, 01:01:10.300 --> 01:01:14.780 which you can find out all about in my new book coming out. Oh, plug it, dude. When's it coming 01:01:14.780 --> 01:01:21.860 out? Next March. But, yeah, basically, it's mostly just all the stuff I've talked about already in 01:01:21.860 --> 01:01:28.000 TikTok, but, like, more detailed. And for anyone who wants to write a book, don't, unless you really 01:01:28.000 --> 01:01:34.600 love writing, it's, like, extremely not worth it in terms of monetary rewards, unless you're 01:01:34.600 --> 01:01:38.280 already famous, like, Prince Harry or someone, right? I think he got an advance of, like, 8 million. 01:01:38.340 --> 01:01:41.120 Unless you're already famous, like, Frank New. It's going to flap the shelves. 01:01:41.880 --> 01:01:44.160 I'd say I'm, like, a niche micro-celebrity. 01:01:45.320 --> 01:01:50.980 Dude, but you're niche in, like, the cool circles, like, the tech circles, like, the... Dude, if I... 01:01:50.980 --> 01:01:56.160 I was gonna... I told my friends, I was, like, oh, I'm gonna be on this, like, podcast. If I show any 01:01:56.160 --> 01:02:02.640 Asian dude, age, like, 25 to 35, your face, they'll be, like, oh, Frank New. Or they'll be, like, 01:02:02.880 --> 01:02:06.700 I have seen this dude's face before. I, like, I've seen this dude before. So, like, you've definitely 01:02:06.700 --> 01:02:12.140 penetrated, like, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're totally right. Like, whenever people... 01:02:12.140 --> 01:02:16.080 People who know my name, that actually approach me in public, guaranteed to be Asian. 01:02:16.640 --> 01:02:16.860 Yeah. 01:02:16.860 --> 01:02:19.040 In, like, 20s to early 30s range. 01:02:19.260 --> 01:02:19.600 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:02:19.840 --> 01:02:23.720 And I'm surprisingly popular in Singapore, which... 01:02:23.720 --> 01:02:24.180 Well, hell yeah. 01:02:24.500 --> 01:02:29.320 ...is kind of interesting, I guess, because I have a friend from a previous workplace, her 01:02:29.320 --> 01:02:34.720 husband... Well, they're both Singaporean, and then her husband is, like, quite connected 01:02:34.720 --> 01:02:40.380 with, like, Singaporean politics and, like, tech sphere, and, like, he got this Koya 01:02:40.380 --> 01:02:46.000 fund around a tech startup and sold them a bunch of stuff, and he's, like, oh, yeah, a 01:02:46.000 --> 01:02:50.340 lot of my friends are, like, surprised that I know you through my wife. I'm, like, oh, cool. 01:02:52.240 --> 01:03:00.000 But at the same time, I think it's, like, I don't know. I would... If I could do it all 01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:05.440 over again, I'm not sure I would still start a social media account, because I think that, 01:03:05.560 --> 01:03:05.740 like... Really? 01:03:06.380 --> 01:03:08.620 I think it's bad for your mental health. Like, I don't... 01:03:08.620 --> 01:03:13.500 I don't think people are meant to, like, interact with so many people. Like, I think we're just 01:03:13.500 --> 01:03:20.560 not built for it. Like, every single content creator I've talked to... So I did... When 01:03:20.560 --> 01:03:24.880 I first started the podcast, I really had no idea what direction to take it, and then I 01:03:24.880 --> 01:03:30.380 thought I would model it off of, like, H3's podcast, where they just interview other content 01:03:30.380 --> 01:03:33.260 creators. I'm like, oh, that makes sense. You talk to other people with followings, they'll 01:03:33.260 --> 01:03:37.760 watch, right? And, like, the common theme of discussions, like, every single person I've 01:03:37.760 --> 01:03:41.440 talked to, like, 100%, they're all like, oh, yeah. Like, it takes a toll on your mental 01:03:41.440 --> 01:03:46.040 health. And, like, people have different ways of coping with it. For me, my way of coping 01:03:46.040 --> 01:03:51.260 is that, like, I don't care that much anyway already. So it's, like, that's, I guess, just 01:03:51.260 --> 01:03:54.680 normal. But then other people, they, like, they say they have to, like, adopt a persona. 01:03:55.260 --> 01:04:00.640 Some people, like, actually hire people to, like, filter out comments for them. I don't 01:04:00.640 --> 01:04:00.740 know. 01:04:00.880 --> 01:04:02.920 It sounds ridiculous, but I think that's really smart. 01:04:03.800 --> 01:04:08.320 It is smart. I mean, if I cared more, I would do that. Well, no, I'm too cheap to do that. 01:04:08.420 --> 01:04:14.240 But, like, if I, if this is my full-time thing, I would do that, too. But, yeah, I don't know. 01:04:14.300 --> 01:04:17.200 I think that, like, fame is definitely overrated once. 01:04:18.560 --> 01:04:23.700 But it's so, it's so, like, it's overrated. I have a couple comments here. One, it's 01:04:23.700 --> 01:04:29.180 overrated. But it's still, it's, like, the aftertaste is still a little sweet, you 01:04:29.180 --> 01:04:32.160 know? Like, there must be a reason you keep uploading, right? I mean, it's the 01:04:32.160 --> 01:04:36.780 reason I keep tweeting. Like, I want to act like I'm above it. I want to act like, yeah, 01:04:36.800 --> 01:04:41.860 I just post my startup updates, you know? It's for me. But I do get a, I do get that 01:04:41.860 --> 01:04:47.260 dopamine when someone says, like, wow, like, your journey's so crazy. You're, like, I 01:04:47.260 --> 01:04:53.720 learn so much from this. And, yeah. And I will say I empathize with, like, obviously 01:04:53.720 --> 01:04:59.460 I'm on a completely different level scale as you. But, you know, I can get 20 01:04:59.460 --> 01:05:03.660 positive comments. But if I get one negative comment, it's just, like, in our 01:05:03.660 --> 01:05:08.180 nature, in my nature, like, as a founder, right, you're, like, you always want to 01:05:08.180 --> 01:05:11.440 prove people wrong. Like, I'll get a, I'll get really nice comments. And then one 01:05:11.440 --> 01:05:16.140 person will be, like, your SEO blogs suck or something. Like, something really just, 01:05:16.140 --> 01:05:20.600 like, this guy, clearly, this guy has, this guy, you know, probably didn't even 01:05:20.600 --> 01:05:25.220 think too much about it. But, you know, I do look at my SEO blogs after. I'm like, 01:05:25.260 --> 01:05:29.000 yeah, this isn't, like, the degree of excellence that, you know, I've set for 01:05:29.000 --> 01:05:34.140 myself. And, like, I go and I do, I fix these blogs or I fix these, you know, 01:05:34.180 --> 01:05:38.440 articles. The reason I come on, like, yeah, it's bad. It's definitely not great for 01:05:38.440 --> 01:05:42.760 your mental health for, like, hundreds of thousands of people to kind of have control, 01:05:42.900 --> 01:05:48.320 have some lever of control over you, at least for me. I don't know, I don't know how much 01:05:48.320 --> 01:05:53.960 control they have over you. And the last thing is, like, I do think that every job, you'll 01:05:53.960 --> 01:05:57.580 have some toll on your mental health. Like, I bet if we were, like, handing out free samples 01:05:57.580 --> 01:06:01.960 to the Costco, we'd probably have some, like, it would take a mental toll on us, too, of, like, 01:06:02.680 --> 01:06:08.340 we're just a glorified, like, you know, just giving out samples. We're just, like, a small 01:06:08.340 --> 01:06:13.880 cog in Costco's, like, grand plan of selling more rotisserie chicken. Like, imagine going home and, 01:06:13.980 --> 01:06:18.040 like, you can't feel, I mean, I don't know, I've never done it before. I've worked at Chipotle 01:06:18.040 --> 01:06:23.820 before. And that was also not great when I was just asking, like, you know, mild, medium, 01:06:23.920 --> 01:06:28.880 hot, corn, guacamole, guacas extra, is that okay? Like, that was, like, my, I would say that 01:06:28.880 --> 01:06:33.980 a thousand times a day, you know, and, like, that was definitely, like, not great either. So, 01:06:34.460 --> 01:06:39.800 I think we do kind of choose our own battles and, yeah. Yeah, you're totally right. It's, like, 01:06:39.900 --> 01:06:45.200 there are clearly still benefits, like, getting that book out now, even though, I don't know, 01:06:45.200 --> 01:06:49.340 I feel like I framed a lot of my life in, like, trying to make a lot of money. And in some ways, 01:06:49.340 --> 01:06:55.380 I still evaluate a lot of my decisions in terms of, like, that, even though I don't have to anymore, 01:06:55.980 --> 01:07:01.620 which I guess is a habit I should try to break out of. But it's, like, speaking on, like, the book 01:07:01.620 --> 01:07:07.460 deal thing, it's, like, such a small amount of money. It's, like, I don't know, I guess for a lot 01:07:07.460 --> 01:07:13.480 of writers, it seems like a lot of people aspire to be writers. And then it's, like, for me, I never 01:07:13.480 --> 01:07:18.320 really thought I would do that. But again, I guess it's, like, you said, it's, like, because you 01:07:18.320 --> 01:07:22.080 already have the following, then you get the opportunity. So, like, I also invested a couple 01:07:22.080 --> 01:07:27.640 startups, again, because of the following. But I don't know, it's, it's strange, though, because I, 01:07:28.020 --> 01:07:33.580 it sounds like you might be similar in the sense that, like, you're more logical minded. You talked 01:07:33.580 --> 01:07:37.820 about the skill tree thing earlier. And a lot of these, you know, we've been talking a lot of these 01:07:37.820 --> 01:07:43.640 things in somewhat negative light in terms of, like, the social connections. But, like, my wife loves 01:07:43.640 --> 01:07:48.020 all that stuff. And she's great at it. Like, she's great at networking and politicking. And, like, she loves 01:07:48.020 --> 01:07:53.480 hanging out with people. And I'm, like, man, I just want to, like, stay home. And I hate that shit. I hate 01:07:53.480 --> 01:08:04.000 that shit so much. Like, I, when I go to these startup networking events, I literally am so, like, I just feel 01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:08.600 out of place. I would rather just be building something cool. But, like, as you said, it's just, 01:08:08.720 --> 01:08:12.600 like, an acquired skill you have to kind of get better at, especially if you're running a startup. 01:08:14.040 --> 01:08:22.160 And, yeah, it's unfortunate. But, yeah, I guess we are similar in that, in that regard. And, dude, 01:08:22.220 --> 01:08:27.500 I'm glad, I'm excited to read your book. I do think, like, it would have been cool. Like, is there any part 01:08:27.500 --> 01:08:33.840 of you that, like, wants to, like, wants to make something kind of crazy? Like, make a crazy startup? 01:08:33.960 --> 01:08:39.160 Or is that just, like, fully kind of, like, I think part of me still is. Just because it's something that 01:08:39.160 --> 01:08:44.640 I haven't been able to do. Like, I made a startup before and it failed. And I'm no longer, like, 01:08:44.660 --> 01:08:47.700 the two friends I convinced to quit their jobs are, I'm no longer friends with them. 01:08:48.380 --> 01:08:55.600 And also, I don't know, it just feels like, I think that humans need some sort of goal to work towards. 01:08:56.140 --> 01:09:02.160 And if you don't have one, you sort of languish and just wither away. And for social media, like, 01:09:02.340 --> 01:09:06.760 my original goal when I started was just to be my wife, which I did. And then it was, like, okay, 01:09:06.820 --> 01:09:08.240 now I have to get this blue checkmark. That's so funny. 01:09:08.940 --> 01:09:13.760 Yeah. And then, like, I did all these media interviews because I'm, like, okay, I need these 01:09:13.760 --> 01:09:18.260 articles so I can get this stupid checkmark. And then I got that. I'm, like, okay, now what? 01:09:18.380 --> 01:09:24.880 Like, try to get a million followers, I guess. But it's, like, I guess getting followers doesn't even 01:09:24.880 --> 01:09:30.680 really mean anything because of how the algorithm works. It's, like, your followings doesn't really 01:09:30.680 --> 01:09:38.380 matter. It doesn't really at all. Yeah. It's, like, it doesn't really affect the views all that much. 01:09:38.480 --> 01:09:42.840 I think that in terms of, like, how many followers you have, there's a baseline of, like, 01:09:43.320 --> 01:09:46.760 the generic algorithm is just, like, oh, show it to a pocket of your followers and then 01:09:46.760 --> 01:09:48.960 gradually expand that out depending on certain metrics. 01:09:49.100 --> 01:09:52.900 Yeah. The retention and watch time of, like, each concentric circle. 01:09:53.300 --> 01:09:57.600 Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And then there are, like, secondary metrics, like, shares, comments, 01:09:58.240 --> 01:10:03.480 likes, et cetera. And then they also change it based on, like, whatever levers the PMs are pulling. 01:10:03.700 --> 01:10:09.180 Like, sometimes it'll be, like, they're prioritizing longer videos, like, over a minute to compete with 01:10:09.180 --> 01:10:15.720 so you don't have cross-posted YouTube shorts. Right. But, like, yeah, I don't know. I think 01:10:15.720 --> 01:10:23.800 I'll probably, I mean, I'll probably be busy for the next five to ten years with kids, honestly. 01:10:23.800 --> 01:10:30.240 Like, I could, I think it's, like, I could, you know, just spend all my time working on something. 01:10:30.500 --> 01:10:38.320 But I think I already made the choice to focus on family, which, you know, I'll still be young-ish. 01:10:38.480 --> 01:10:43.180 I mean, I'll be middle-aged. I am middle-aged. I'll be more middle-aged by the time they're in school. 01:10:43.180 --> 01:10:45.740 How old are you? Is this public information? If you don't have to say, it's not. 01:10:45.940 --> 01:10:48.840 Yeah, I'm 32. It's not, I don't hide it or anything. 01:10:49.120 --> 01:10:55.280 Yeah. I mean, dude, like, I think the average startup's, successful startup founder's age is, like, 35 or 40 or something. 01:10:55.400 --> 01:11:02.500 Like, it's way, you know, like, it's all, it's romanticized as, like, you know, these Stanford dropouts are the ones changing the world. 01:11:02.500 --> 01:11:10.640 But really, most often, it's actually not. So, you know, I do hope I see you out, like, back to Chamath. 01:11:10.700 --> 01:11:12.200 I see you in the arena one of these days. 01:11:12.200 --> 01:11:12.720 In the arena. 01:11:14.460 --> 01:11:18.940 Dude, this is an interesting podcast. I feel like we don't actually talk about, like, ourselves that much. 01:11:18.980 --> 01:11:20.980 We've just talked about, like, the all-in podcast. 01:11:21.180 --> 01:11:21.340 Yeah. 01:11:22.200 --> 01:11:28.100 Dude, like, is our opinions really that valuable that we're just talking about critiquing, like, human behavior and all that stuff? 01:11:28.300 --> 01:11:29.200 Meta-commentary. 01:11:29.700 --> 01:11:36.760 I mean, I think it's, it's interesting just because, like, I don't know. 01:11:37.060 --> 01:11:38.960 I feel like I've talked about my own story a lot. 01:11:38.960 --> 01:11:41.880 And I guess I'd be more interested to hear about your story. 01:11:42.020 --> 01:11:46.080 And you talked about fighting cancer at the same time as building your startup. 01:11:46.240 --> 01:11:51.220 I assume you're, you know, you've won that battle and you're healthy now, question mark? 01:11:52.480 --> 01:11:54.740 Yeah, I mean, I think I'm healthy now. 01:11:54.880 --> 01:11:56.140 Like, I get blood tests. 01:11:57.080 --> 01:12:00.600 I haven't actually gotten my, so I got, like, half my thyroid removed. 01:12:01.880 --> 01:12:06.520 And the doctor said the surgery was successful, so I should be cancer-free. 01:12:07.800 --> 01:12:09.140 But, yeah, it was super crazy. 01:12:09.480 --> 01:12:21.340 Like, it was pretty crazy because I was literally growing my startup from basically nothing to making millions a year. 01:12:21.800 --> 01:12:24.520 Well, at the same time, I was diagnosed with cancer. 01:12:25.380 --> 01:12:34.700 So, like, what's, like, that quote of, like, a tree can't reach the heights of heaven unless its roots are able to reach the depths of hell? 01:12:35.160 --> 01:12:44.440 And, like, that's actually kind of how I felt a little bit where, like, everything in my life, because, like, you know, I'm kind of a, I'm kind of a dork, right? 01:12:44.440 --> 01:12:52.180 But I never aspired for, like, you know, too many things besides really, like, all I wanted was my startup to, like, fucking be, bring value to some people. 01:12:52.480 --> 01:12:56.060 Like, that was, like, it sounds like a weird goal, but that was just, like, my life's goal at the time. 01:12:56.640 --> 01:12:58.160 And I was finally able to achieve it. 01:12:58.200 --> 01:13:00.660 And then my life was possibly going to end at the same time. 01:13:01.180 --> 01:13:04.640 Thankfully, it was, like, thyroid cancer, which is, like, the mortality rate is actually pretty low. 01:13:05.380 --> 01:13:10.940 But, you know, even the disassociation of just saying, like, I have cancer was fucking crazy. 01:13:11.340 --> 01:13:16.400 That took a long time for me to actually, like, be able to reconcile with that. 01:13:17.200 --> 01:13:21.820 And then there was another part of, you know, there's complications with thyroid because it's in your neck. 01:13:21.920 --> 01:13:26.460 Like, you could lose your voice or your voice could be, like, altered after the surgery. 01:13:27.220 --> 01:13:31.160 And, like, my whole life, I obviously am not a bodybuilder. 01:13:31.240 --> 01:13:33.080 There's nothing great, like, physically about me. 01:13:33.080 --> 01:13:35.680 You know, there's nothing, like, I have no skills with my hands. 01:13:35.760 --> 01:13:36.920 I have no, like, trade skills. 01:13:37.040 --> 01:13:41.260 Like, everything I've done is all about, like, communicating things, like, being, like, a founder. 01:13:41.760 --> 01:13:49.680 And so, like, the fact that, like, the one, you know, bringing about, like, a skill tree that I've been working on was in jeopardy was also really sad to me. 01:13:49.720 --> 01:13:55.360 Because, you know, what if I woke up and, like, I couldn't speak? 01:13:55.480 --> 01:13:56.960 Even if it was for, like, three months, six months. 01:13:56.980 --> 01:13:57.780 That's actually pretty common. 01:13:57.900 --> 01:14:00.760 For, like, a few months, you're not really able to speak that well. 01:14:01.060 --> 01:14:03.840 Because, like, they have to move your vocal cords to, like, reach your thyroid. 01:14:03.940 --> 01:14:07.140 So, like, it can take time for it to get back to its normal place. 01:14:07.280 --> 01:14:13.100 But, yeah, it was, like, I mean, that's the high-level summary of it. 01:14:13.240 --> 01:14:18.280 Of just, it was really made me reevaluate a lot of my personal life. 01:14:18.360 --> 01:14:26.300 And it was just so interesting that it happened at the same time as the greatest things I've always wanted in my entire life happening at the same time. 01:14:26.360 --> 01:14:27.160 So, it was, like, pretty crazy. 01:14:28.120 --> 01:14:31.680 How did you even find out initially that you had anything going on? 01:14:32.440 --> 01:14:33.840 Yeah, I was in Korea at the time. 01:14:34.200 --> 01:14:38.000 I have, like, this, like, growth in my jaw. 01:14:38.220 --> 01:14:38.960 You can't see it. 01:14:39.000 --> 01:14:41.040 But, like, if you feel it, it's, like, a little, like, marble. 01:14:41.580 --> 01:14:42.840 And that was always trippy to me. 01:14:42.880 --> 01:14:43.460 So, I went there. 01:14:43.540 --> 01:14:46.180 And I was, like, hey, I have this growth in my jaw. 01:14:46.240 --> 01:14:46.880 Can you check it for me? 01:14:46.900 --> 01:14:47.580 And they did an ultrasound. 01:14:47.760 --> 01:14:48.880 They're, like, actually, that's totally benign. 01:14:49.200 --> 01:14:49.980 Don't worry about it. 01:14:50.320 --> 01:14:52.860 Like, hey, since you're here, do you want to just, like, do your neck, too? 01:14:52.940 --> 01:14:53.660 Like, just check it around? 01:14:53.700 --> 01:14:54.820 I'm, like, yeah, sure. 01:14:55.500 --> 01:14:56.740 And then they happened to check. 01:14:56.740 --> 01:14:58.020 And they were, like, holy shit, dude. 01:14:58.020 --> 01:15:00.420 You have, like, tumors in your thyroid. 01:15:01.100 --> 01:15:04.060 You know it's, like, scary because I was in Korea. 01:15:04.580 --> 01:15:06.880 Like, when the really nice Korean lady is, like, talkative. 01:15:06.980 --> 01:15:07.960 Like, oh, you're so young. 01:15:08.000 --> 01:15:08.420 What are you doing? 01:15:08.500 --> 01:15:09.620 You know, what's your job? 01:15:09.680 --> 01:15:11.560 And then, like, complete silence for, like, three minutes. 01:15:11.960 --> 01:15:14.600 She's just, like, continually going over, checking the team, taking pictures. 01:15:14.740 --> 01:15:16.440 I'm, like, something's weird here. 01:15:17.080 --> 01:15:18.820 And then, yeah. 01:15:18.920 --> 01:15:20.040 So, it's actually complete luck. 01:15:20.480 --> 01:15:27.000 The fact that she just happened to check my neck and then find thyroid cancer is, like, pretty crazy. 01:15:27.360 --> 01:15:35.740 And I think, like, my life has been, like, middled with these, like, kind of unexplainable moments of, like, for example, I was once on a VC call. 01:15:35.980 --> 01:15:38.100 It was going, like, totally lukewarm. 01:15:38.360 --> 01:15:39.600 And then he saw my scar. 01:15:40.020 --> 01:15:41.580 And then he actually had the same scar. 01:15:41.660 --> 01:15:42.780 He actually also had thyroid cancer. 01:15:42.980 --> 01:15:43.240 Wow. 01:15:43.340 --> 01:15:45.020 And then he gave me a term sheet for $300,000. 01:15:45.320 --> 01:15:49.760 You know, it's, like, really weird coincidences happening. 01:15:51.240 --> 01:15:53.260 You know, I'm not, like, a super religious person. 01:15:53.260 --> 01:16:04.380 But just, like, when you kind of go through these things, our feeble monkey brains, I feel you just want to kind of chalk it up to, like, maybe there is such a thing as fate. 01:16:04.820 --> 01:16:11.960 Maybe there is such a thing as, like, God, you know, and, you know, even if it's not totally logically coherent, it just feels nice. 01:16:12.180 --> 01:16:15.620 It just makes me slightly happier throughout the day when I think about, like, these happy coincidences. 01:16:17.140 --> 01:16:17.960 Yeah, definitely. 01:16:17.960 --> 01:16:30.000 Like, everyone wanted to ascribe, like, all these happenstance and chance encounters to something bigger than themselves, like, a grand painting, tapestry of life, and, like, a small part of it being woven into, like, the correct spots. 01:16:30.920 --> 01:16:31.120 Yeah. 01:16:31.580 --> 01:16:40.940 I don't know how much time you got, but I have one last story on that kind of point of, like, before my surgery, it was a bunch of complications. 01:16:40.940 --> 01:16:41.560 I had a fever. 01:16:42.300 --> 01:16:44.520 They were saying, like, we should probably move the surgery. 01:16:44.980 --> 01:16:46.700 But I was like, no, dude, I've been waiting so many months for this. 01:16:46.700 --> 01:16:48.440 Like, let's just run it. 01:16:48.880 --> 01:16:52.040 And so, but in order to do that, they had to, like, move some surgeries around. 01:16:52.120 --> 01:16:54.020 So I actually didn't know when my surgery start date was. 01:16:54.580 --> 01:16:56.040 So my mom was next to me. 01:16:56.120 --> 01:16:57.260 She flew out to Korea with me. 01:16:57.640 --> 01:17:00.700 And she was like, yeah, I have something I want to tell you before your surgery. 01:17:01.680 --> 01:17:02.400 I was like, okay, that's fine. 01:17:02.720 --> 01:17:07.840 And it just so happened that when she went to, like, the bathroom or something, the Korean nurses, like, came rushing in. 01:17:07.880 --> 01:17:09.400 They were like, all right, we moved it around. 01:17:09.460 --> 01:17:10.380 Right now is the time to go. 01:17:10.800 --> 01:17:13.060 And I was like, okay, but my mom's not here. 01:17:13.220 --> 01:17:14.180 You know, I don't speak Korean. 01:17:14.380 --> 01:17:15.880 They're like, no, we got to go right now, right now. 01:17:15.880 --> 01:17:17.520 I was like, okay, can I take my phone? 01:17:17.580 --> 01:17:18.240 Like, no phone. 01:17:19.420 --> 01:17:20.340 We're rocking and rolling. 01:17:20.460 --> 01:17:20.820 I was like, okay. 01:17:20.900 --> 01:17:22.100 So they wheeled me down. 01:17:22.180 --> 01:17:23.040 I'm super scared. 01:17:23.200 --> 01:17:24.560 I don't understand what they're saying to me. 01:17:24.660 --> 01:17:28.320 Obviously, I'm like, I can speak Korean, but I don't know, like, papillary carcinoma. 01:17:28.440 --> 01:17:29.960 And I don't know, you know, these medical terms. 01:17:30.080 --> 01:17:31.140 And they're explaining this shit to me. 01:17:31.160 --> 01:17:32.640 I'm signing documents I can't even read. 01:17:33.140 --> 01:17:33.940 I'm really scared. 01:17:34.800 --> 01:17:39.020 But then in the waiting room, I actually see above me on the ceiling, like, there's this 01:17:39.020 --> 01:17:44.040 Bible verse of just like, it's some generic Bible verse, like, you know, don't leave it 01:17:44.040 --> 01:17:46.360 all up to God or something kind of cliche, whatever. 01:17:46.920 --> 01:17:51.840 And for some reason, I was like, okay, I'll just, I've done all I can do. 01:17:51.880 --> 01:17:54.160 I'll just leave it all up to the big man upstairs. 01:17:54.480 --> 01:17:55.900 I'll just go into the surgery. 01:17:56.580 --> 01:17:58.840 And then so long story short, they do the surgery. 01:17:59.040 --> 01:17:59.760 It was pretty crazy. 01:18:00.160 --> 01:18:01.700 I wake up to like blood everywhere. 01:18:01.840 --> 01:18:02.640 It's like nuts. 01:18:03.200 --> 01:18:04.100 I can't really move. 01:18:04.160 --> 01:18:04.820 I can't really talk. 01:18:05.480 --> 01:18:09.940 But, you know, eventually five days later, I'm able to like whisper out some words. 01:18:09.980 --> 01:18:13.240 And I'm like, you know, hey, mom, what was that thing that you wanted to tell me before 01:18:13.240 --> 01:18:13.740 my surgery? 01:18:13.860 --> 01:18:17.380 And she's like, oh, it's actually, and then she told me the Bible verse that was on the 01:18:17.380 --> 01:18:19.300 ceiling, the same Bible verse, right? 01:18:19.480 --> 01:18:20.760 And it's like a cute little story. 01:18:20.980 --> 01:18:25.860 We could obviously logically say like, oh, you know, the SEO of like what to tell a surgery 01:18:25.860 --> 01:18:27.280 patient before going to surgery. 01:18:27.400 --> 01:18:30.640 The dude who wrote that on the ceiling and maybe my mom Googled the same thing and they 01:18:30.640 --> 01:18:31.760 ended up with the same Bible verse. 01:18:31.820 --> 01:18:33.560 Or maybe it's just like one of the most popular Bible verses. 01:18:33.780 --> 01:18:37.220 So it's like not that remarkable that they happen to be the same thing. 01:18:37.340 --> 01:18:43.000 But I think like the story is way more beautiful when you think about it. 01:18:43.140 --> 01:18:44.840 Like, man, like I was ready to bolt out of there. 01:18:44.940 --> 01:18:46.060 I didn't know what the hell was happening. 01:18:46.120 --> 01:18:46.940 I was signing things I didn't know. 01:18:46.960 --> 01:18:47.540 I was really scared. 01:18:47.760 --> 01:18:51.780 But because that was on the ceiling, you know, I felt a little more resolve and I stayed 01:18:51.780 --> 01:18:54.840 and I got this, I got the surgery and now I feel a lot better. 01:18:54.840 --> 01:19:00.400 So, yeah, like, so ever since then, I've always kind of started thinking more in terms 01:19:00.400 --> 01:19:06.160 of like happy miracles and happy, like, like fate. 01:19:06.500 --> 01:19:11.140 And it probably makes me lose a little street cred in these like data scientists, like logic 01:19:11.140 --> 01:19:12.080 X circles. 01:19:12.080 --> 01:19:12.380 Right. 01:19:12.380 --> 01:19:14.800 But, you know, who gives a fuck about their opinion? 01:19:14.800 --> 01:19:16.860 Like I'm maximizing for my own happiness. 01:19:16.860 --> 01:19:22.740 And when I see the world through this lens, like I just am, I'm just a nicer person. 01:19:22.740 --> 01:19:23.540 I'm a happier person. 01:19:23.540 --> 01:19:29.800 So, yeah, that's just like one kind of like funny, miraculous kind of story from my surgery 01:19:29.800 --> 01:19:30.060 day. 01:19:31.100 --> 01:19:32.400 Yeah, that's an amazing story. 01:19:32.540 --> 01:19:36.220 It's definitely the best one that's been told on my podcast anyway. 01:19:36.340 --> 01:19:36.660 Really? 01:19:36.920 --> 01:19:38.040 No, you're just being polite. 01:19:38.280 --> 01:19:38.880 But I appreciate it. 01:19:38.880 --> 01:19:39.120 Really? 01:19:39.400 --> 01:19:42.780 I mean, how much better can you get than like a life threatening situation? 01:19:42.780 --> 01:19:45.420 Like, yeah, yeah, that's true. 01:19:46.300 --> 01:19:46.660 Yeah. 01:19:46.700 --> 01:19:51.360 I mean, I think that's a really great mindset to have because I would say I'm generally a 01:19:51.360 --> 01:19:52.440 somewhat depressing person. 01:19:53.080 --> 01:19:53.480 And my wife. 01:19:53.620 --> 01:19:54.580 You kind of seem like that, dude. 01:19:54.760 --> 01:19:55.800 You kind of, I'm not going to lie. 01:19:55.920 --> 01:19:57.120 Like you're a little like, yeah. 01:19:57.520 --> 01:20:00.800 My like general contentment levels are probably a bit below average. 01:20:01.140 --> 01:20:04.800 But I think that my wife, hers are like very high, naturally. 01:20:05.400 --> 01:20:10.300 And her mindset is much more similar to the one that you, I guess, had, have now. 01:20:10.740 --> 01:20:10.880 Yeah. 01:20:10.880 --> 01:20:12.640 Where it's like everything kind of happens for a reason. 01:20:13.440 --> 01:20:13.600 Yeah. 01:20:14.840 --> 01:20:18.160 And I'm kind of just like, oh, well, everything just happens because it happens. 01:20:18.780 --> 01:20:20.060 But, yeah, I don't know. 01:20:20.780 --> 01:20:25.200 I think a lot of it is inherited in some way because my brothers, they're also kind of like 01:20:25.200 --> 01:20:26.540 lower on the happiness levels. 01:20:26.980 --> 01:20:27.580 A little gloomy. 01:20:27.900 --> 01:20:28.540 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:20:28.540 --> 01:20:29.720 Too realistic, yeah. 01:20:29.880 --> 01:20:31.120 Yeah, I don't know what it is. 01:20:31.500 --> 01:20:35.060 But I mean, I was like that too, man. 01:20:35.160 --> 01:20:36.120 I was definitely like that too. 01:20:36.180 --> 01:20:38.920 And it's not, I don't want to spin some like lie. 01:20:39.040 --> 01:20:44.080 I still have, I think the reason we were able to kind of have like a pretty well-flown discussion 01:20:44.080 --> 01:20:49.080 is like I have traces of kind of being too pragmatic and like looking at kind of like 01:20:49.080 --> 01:20:50.860 the faults in the world. 01:20:50.960 --> 01:20:53.840 Like it's pretty easy to poke, it's so easy to poke holes in things, right? 01:20:54.120 --> 01:20:56.400 It's so easy to look at the world and like, yeah, that is stupid. 01:20:56.400 --> 01:20:57.300 That is inefficient. 01:20:57.460 --> 01:20:58.260 That is suboptimal. 01:20:58.900 --> 01:21:01.320 But like, is that really how we want to live our lives? 01:21:01.420 --> 01:21:07.260 Like I would rather just, yeah, I would rather just focus on the positive stuff. 01:21:07.580 --> 01:21:08.360 So, yeah. 01:21:08.540 --> 01:21:12.660 And I think it's, especially when you're an engineer, like when you're literally trained 01:21:12.660 --> 01:21:18.000 to be like, hey, you know, you will be rewarded for having this mindset and looking at things 01:21:18.000 --> 01:21:23.340 with like a critical eye, but then it's like the saying, it's like, you choose to critique 01:21:23.340 --> 01:21:27.940 something and you can either like do something about it or not, or like, do you have a way 01:21:27.940 --> 01:21:29.280 to potentially solve a situation? 01:21:29.840 --> 01:21:31.980 Like, are you looking just to poke holes just to be critical? 01:21:32.260 --> 01:21:36.660 Or like, can you try to flip your mindset and think of like, well, how could that idea 01:21:36.660 --> 01:21:37.520 be successful? 01:21:37.640 --> 01:21:38.740 Or like, how would you fix that? 01:21:38.980 --> 01:21:40.820 If you can't fix it, then like, don't worry about it. 01:21:40.860 --> 01:21:41.280 Kind of deal. 01:21:41.360 --> 01:21:41.500 Yeah. 01:21:42.220 --> 01:21:42.580 Yeah. 01:21:42.800 --> 01:21:44.660 I mean, it's tough. 01:21:44.980 --> 01:21:45.660 It's definitely tough. 01:21:46.100 --> 01:21:46.280 Yeah. 01:21:46.380 --> 01:21:47.220 How much time we got? 01:21:47.280 --> 01:21:54.600 You want to share like one crazy now, now that you kind of heard my story, anything like 01:21:54.600 --> 01:21:56.260 kind of miraculous ever happened to you? 01:21:56.320 --> 01:21:57.220 The most miraculous thing. 01:21:57.260 --> 01:21:59.040 It almost feels like it was written. 01:21:59.400 --> 01:22:04.960 It almost feels like a, like a, you wouldn't believe it if it was in a movie because it's 01:22:04.960 --> 01:22:05.700 just too cliche. 01:22:05.700 --> 01:22:07.500 Like something kind of like that ever happened to you? 01:22:08.460 --> 01:22:13.880 Um, not nearly as good as yours, but just, I guess on how I actually met my wife was very, 01:22:14.020 --> 01:22:20.080 very unlikely because, so first of all, when I was moving to SF, the person who I was about 01:22:20.080 --> 01:22:22.800 to get a room with, uh, he's renting out his extra room. 01:22:23.080 --> 01:22:28.220 He actually emailed me two weeks before and said like, Hey, I'm going to rent it out to 01:22:28.220 --> 01:22:28.780 some other dude. 01:22:28.780 --> 01:22:30.360 Cause he's paying me more, more money. 01:22:30.640 --> 01:22:34.280 And so like his parents bought him the condo. 01:22:34.360 --> 01:22:35.360 I'm like, well, that sucks. 01:22:35.360 --> 01:22:41.780 So I go to try to find like an Airbnb, uh, and I eventually find one and this girl, she's 01:22:41.780 --> 01:22:46.120 like, Hey, if you want like a more long-term thing, uh, we could think about like making 01:22:46.120 --> 01:22:51.080 this like a unofficial sublease, uh, kind of skirting around Airbnb to get around the 01:22:51.080 --> 01:22:51.660 fees and such. 01:22:52.360 --> 01:22:55.040 Um, turns out she was like a huge psychopath and. 01:22:55.500 --> 01:22:56.220 Oh my gosh. 01:22:56.260 --> 01:22:59.160 It was like potentially the worst person I've met in my life. 01:22:59.260 --> 01:23:02.180 Thus for it could be worse people in the future. 01:23:02.300 --> 01:23:03.540 I thought she was going to be her wife. 01:23:03.600 --> 01:23:05.600 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. 01:23:05.600 --> 01:23:05.800 Yeah. 01:23:05.800 --> 01:23:12.500 And then I changed her and now we're very, uh, but eventually, uh, so we, I guess, well, 01:23:12.500 --> 01:23:18.540 because she earned a decent amount of money and all the other people that I, I knew in SF 01:23:18.540 --> 01:23:21.400 slash were friends with, didn't earn as much money. 01:23:21.660 --> 01:23:27.540 Uh, I still lived with her for renew the lease at a different place and we got like a bigger 01:23:27.540 --> 01:23:33.140 place and nicer and then she tried to rent out the living room, uh, while I was on like 01:23:33.140 --> 01:23:34.640 a tech conference or something. 01:23:35.540 --> 01:23:39.180 And so the first, there was like four people interested. 01:23:39.440 --> 01:23:45.120 The first person, um, she was like the person who worked at Google and she kind of backed out 01:23:45.120 --> 01:23:49.440 because I think she was getting bad vibes from my roommate, uh, which were correctly sussed 01:23:49.440 --> 01:23:55.460 uh, second person was a dude and his mom didn't want him living in the living room. 01:23:56.460 --> 01:24:02.060 Uh, third person, um, ended up backing out just for whatever reasons. 01:24:02.360 --> 01:24:07.980 And then the fourth person, uh, which ended up being my eventual wife, she moved in because 01:24:07.980 --> 01:24:12.860 and my like psychopath roommate didn't want to rent it out to her cause she felt like she 01:24:12.860 --> 01:24:19.740 was kind of suss, like she was from Canada, worked in like a sales position, um, and was 01:24:19.740 --> 01:24:23.740 like, okay, well, you know, don't want to rent it out to her. 01:24:23.820 --> 01:24:25.860 She seems like the least stable out of these, all these choices. 01:24:26.480 --> 01:24:33.180 So she eventually moved in, uh, I eventually, against my better judgment and all the judgment 01:24:33.180 --> 01:24:38.220 of all my friends saying, Hey, don't date your roommate, uh, pursued a relationship with 01:24:38.220 --> 01:24:40.460 that girl who ended up living in the living room. 01:24:40.460 --> 01:24:47.700 Uh, and then we eventually, and then there was like a huge legal battle issue with that psychopath 01:24:47.700 --> 01:24:53.940 roommate and the landlord and yeah, you know, we ended up getting like somewhat kind of kicked 01:24:53.940 --> 01:24:57.600 out, not officially, but like kind of, they're like, Hey, we're going to evict you unless 01:24:57.600 --> 01:24:59.340 you just officially move out. 01:24:59.440 --> 01:25:02.720 My roommate was threatening to like flood the place and flee to China. 01:25:03.040 --> 01:25:10.180 Uh, the, the, the psychopath one, she did a bunch more crazy stuff, like on us, um, threatened 01:25:10.180 --> 01:25:13.820 to like self-harm herself when her boyfriend was threatening to leave her. 01:25:14.040 --> 01:25:16.140 She was like seeing all these dudes. 01:25:16.140 --> 01:25:18.820 She like got all these STTs. 01:25:19.460 --> 01:25:25.840 Um, but, um, anyway, kind of story goes on, but, uh, eventually that person who moved into 01:25:25.840 --> 01:25:28.000 my living room and like, we're so, so different. 01:25:28.240 --> 01:25:30.280 Like she's like this outgoing salesperson. 01:25:30.860 --> 01:25:32.720 Uh, I was like nerdy tech dude. 01:25:32.920 --> 01:25:35.760 Like we would have never really met in any other circumstance. 01:25:36.820 --> 01:25:38.260 Um, that's crazy. 01:25:38.400 --> 01:25:39.400 That's so beautiful, man. 01:25:39.500 --> 01:25:40.420 That's a crazy story. 01:25:41.280 --> 01:25:41.640 Yeah. 01:25:41.720 --> 01:25:45.240 I mean, I think it's more of like a, like a, like almost like a rom-com kind of thing 01:25:45.240 --> 01:25:46.760 where yours is more like a drama, right? 01:25:46.800 --> 01:25:49.500 Yours has like the highs and lows and mine's just kind of go like, ha ha. 01:25:50.900 --> 01:25:53.280 I did have to, I had to put more stakes on the table. 01:25:53.280 --> 01:25:56.100 I think of like my life or like, I guess you put a lot of stakes. 01:25:56.220 --> 01:25:59.020 You're the person you choose to spend the rest of your life with is pretty crazy too. 01:25:59.080 --> 01:26:01.880 So, I mean, she's not crazy, but it is a crazy decision. 01:26:02.400 --> 01:26:04.560 Um, so yeah, I mean, I love your story. 01:26:04.820 --> 01:26:09.180 I mean, I have a crazy story with my girlfriend that I am with right now too, but basically like 01:26:09.180 --> 01:26:12.460 that's what life's about really like finding, like that's the most important decision 01:26:12.460 --> 01:26:17.740 is finding like your life partner and like, I'm glad that your living room was Airbnb'd out. 01:26:17.940 --> 01:26:22.200 I guess that was the really determining factor of like this whole trajectory of your life 01:26:22.200 --> 01:26:26.640 is just your living room, your Airbnb living room, which is pretty funny. 01:26:27.360 --> 01:26:27.560 Yeah. 01:26:27.740 --> 01:26:29.120 It's, I don't know. 01:26:29.180 --> 01:26:34.500 Like, like you said, there's all these things that kind of, I mean, I think we've both been 01:26:34.500 --> 01:26:35.960 very fortunate in a lot of ways. 01:26:35.960 --> 01:26:44.340 Um, and aside tiny fun fact that I read about recently, Asian Americans, specifically like 01:26:44.340 --> 01:26:53.260 Eastern Asians who have been more or less assimilated, who like are English speaking, grew up in the 01:26:53.260 --> 01:27:00.220 West perform better, like make more money when you standardize the IQ compared to their white 01:27:00.220 --> 01:27:00.720 counterparts. 01:27:00.920 --> 01:27:07.000 So basically out of like all the different ethnicities, it's like Asian people are killing 01:27:07.000 --> 01:27:08.520 it, like career and money wise. 01:27:09.220 --> 01:27:13.180 Um, and then the article didn't really go into the like whys. 01:27:13.400 --> 01:27:13.980 The why, yeah. 01:27:14.040 --> 01:27:14.520 Cause like. 01:27:14.620 --> 01:27:15.920 Cause that would be like racist, right? 01:27:16.020 --> 01:27:16.640 Yeah, exactly. 01:27:16.880 --> 01:27:17.660 But you know, it just. 01:27:17.660 --> 01:27:18.720 Let's not get into it here either. 01:27:19.660 --> 01:27:20.460 Ah, whatever. 01:27:20.880 --> 01:27:22.180 No one's going to listen to this last part. 01:27:22.260 --> 01:27:23.720 We're like in the, in the dregs. 01:27:23.720 --> 01:27:29.280 But I think it mostly comes down to culture because it's like, I think our parents, at 01:27:29.280 --> 01:27:34.160 least majority of Asian parents that I know of, they're really instill like, Hey, education, 01:27:34.320 --> 01:27:38.740 hard work, um, like putting your head down and doing the work, which I think also leads 01:27:38.740 --> 01:27:43.780 to this personality of like, we're not awesome at socializing because instead of like going 01:27:43.780 --> 01:27:47.720 out to party and dating and doing all this sports and stuff growing up, it's like, Hey, 01:27:48.100 --> 01:27:49.380 you know, we're studying, hitting the books. 01:27:49.380 --> 01:27:50.380 We're doing well on our tests. 01:27:50.840 --> 01:27:54.300 Um, we're putting the work in, which also leads to these situations in the workplace 01:27:54.300 --> 01:27:59.760 or in networking events or like raising VC money where you're kind of at a disadvantage 01:27:59.760 --> 01:28:04.100 because like, instead of getting people to look at the metrics and being like, Hey, you 01:28:04.100 --> 01:28:05.000 know, I'm doing good work. 01:28:05.080 --> 01:28:07.620 I have this industry knowledge. 01:28:07.620 --> 01:28:09.740 Like you can look at my metrics and look at this growth. 01:28:09.740 --> 01:28:11.280 Like this should be enough, right? 01:28:11.400 --> 01:28:13.820 Like look at the numbers, look at the data. 01:28:14.140 --> 01:28:18.340 And then a lot of people who are completely Westernized, right? 01:28:18.680 --> 01:28:23.220 They're, they're expecting a lot of like the chit chat that like wine and dine, the, um, 01:28:23.220 --> 01:28:24.440 the socialization aspect. 01:28:25.020 --> 01:28:30.900 Um, but I guess like overall, when you average it out against entire population, like this 01:28:30.900 --> 01:28:34.800 still turns out to be like a high expected value play. 01:28:34.800 --> 01:28:41.120 Like it on turns out like working really hard and keeping your head down, um, still works 01:28:41.120 --> 01:28:41.800 out pretty well. 01:28:42.440 --> 01:28:44.020 Dude, a hundred percent. 01:28:44.380 --> 01:28:50.380 And the crazy thing is like, I think that I honestly feel like the world was just like, 01:28:50.380 --> 01:28:54.040 it's giving me so many miracles because I'm the exact same way of like, I'm not really 01:28:54.040 --> 01:28:54.820 good at socializing. 01:28:54.980 --> 01:29:00.220 I just want to put my head down and work, but it happened to, it happened to be the COVID 01:29:00.220 --> 01:29:00.980 took over the world. 01:29:01.380 --> 01:29:07.340 So that I actually was pitching to VCs over like webcam, which is much less scary than 01:29:07.340 --> 01:29:10.520 having to stand in front of like in a boardroom with the, with the monitor, you know? 01:29:10.520 --> 01:29:14.760 And like having to actually like go to these networking parties, but like now I can just 01:29:14.760 --> 01:29:15.360 join via zoom. 01:29:15.360 --> 01:29:19.720 And it was like, that was so good for me as somebody with like, not the best socializing 01:29:19.720 --> 01:29:20.020 skills. 01:29:20.180 --> 01:29:23.040 And then on top of that, when COVID relaxed, everyone had masks. 01:29:23.580 --> 01:29:28.460 So when I had, when, when I had to actually go to these pitch pitches to like do it in 01:29:28.460 --> 01:29:32.520 person and in front of crowds, I was able to wear a mask, which makes it so much less scary 01:29:32.520 --> 01:29:36.500 because like, you know, even if my face turns red or I feel like a question flusters me, 01:29:36.520 --> 01:29:38.720 I was able to kind of hide that behind a mask. 01:29:38.840 --> 01:29:42.600 And then once you do that enough, you don't really need the mask because you have enough 01:29:42.600 --> 01:29:45.420 of like the experience doing it on stage with the mask. 01:29:45.420 --> 01:29:50.800 So, yeah, I mean, like I totally vibe with that of like, you know, I feel like in general, 01:29:50.800 --> 01:29:55.980 Asian-Americans are a little more timid, a little more reserved and a little more just 01:29:55.980 --> 01:29:58.000 kind of heads down and focus. 01:29:58.880 --> 01:30:03.900 And it just so happened that the cards were played out where like, even though I didn't 01:30:03.900 --> 01:30:08.280 have these other skill sets, like the circumstances turned out where I didn't really need them 01:30:08.280 --> 01:30:08.920 as much. 01:30:09.320 --> 01:30:13.760 And I think honestly, that played to a lot of like my current startup success is just those 01:30:13.760 --> 01:30:14.580 circumstances. 01:30:14.580 --> 01:30:18.900 So a lot of like my success is like luck, like like that, these things kind of unfolding 01:30:18.900 --> 01:30:24.480 and it kind of goes back to like, these are really crazy miracles of like the entire world 01:30:24.480 --> 01:30:29.560 had to shut down for me to have like an equal fighting chances, like the absolute Riz Lord 01:30:29.560 --> 01:30:30.220 from Stanford. 01:30:30.420 --> 01:30:34.200 You could go into the building room and just like, you know, look these guys, these like 01:30:34.200 --> 01:30:36.040 billionaires in the eyes and get a hundred thousand check. 01:30:36.140 --> 01:30:38.640 I can't even look them in the eyes like when I'm 2021. 01:30:38.980 --> 01:30:39.120 Right. 01:30:39.160 --> 01:30:41.860 So, but, you know, it's easy for me to look at myself on the screen. 01:30:41.860 --> 01:30:43.320 It's easy for me to like share a screen. 01:30:43.320 --> 01:30:46.180 If I'm like a little pixel in the corner, it's not that scary to me. 01:30:46.180 --> 01:30:48.600 So, um, yeah, no, I totally agree. 01:30:48.700 --> 01:30:51.620 Like, uh, I don't, I mean, you can link me to it after, but like, yeah, that, that does 01:30:51.620 --> 01:30:52.500 make a lot of sense to me. 01:30:53.460 --> 01:30:53.780 Yeah. 01:30:53.920 --> 01:30:54.640 And it's hilarious. 01:30:54.640 --> 01:31:00.740 Cause like the zoom evening out the playing field is also been studied somewhat. 01:31:00.740 --> 01:31:05.160 And it's like people who are taller have advantage in the workplace, but over zoom, everyone's 01:31:05.160 --> 01:31:05.680 the same height. 01:31:06.360 --> 01:31:08.500 Dude, we're both six, four right now. 01:31:08.560 --> 01:31:09.820 We're both six, four, man. 01:31:10.480 --> 01:31:11.520 And not even that. 01:31:11.600 --> 01:31:16.820 So like, if someone works remotes, like I remember this one dude, he was like a contractor at Grubhub. 01:31:17.040 --> 01:31:19.060 He came in, dude was completely jacked. 01:31:19.180 --> 01:31:23.360 Like you couldn't tell from his like up cause it just looked like a normal guy, but he came 01:31:23.360 --> 01:31:23.760 to the office. 01:31:23.880 --> 01:31:25.740 Dude was huge, like tall, jacked. 01:31:25.800 --> 01:31:29.240 It's like, he probably would have gotten more money if he came to the office, but he was 01:31:29.240 --> 01:31:30.000 like a remote worker. 01:31:30.680 --> 01:31:35.740 And I think to a lesser extent, it even has to do with female attractiveness levels. 01:31:36.260 --> 01:31:38.600 So they found out, I forget what the, this was like high school. 01:31:39.400 --> 01:31:44.780 I hope it was high school, but teachers generally would give better grades to females who are 01:31:44.780 --> 01:31:46.160 more attractive, both genders. 01:31:47.040 --> 01:31:53.380 And so high school teachers would, teachers would, but over zoom, it's a little icky, but 01:31:53.380 --> 01:31:58.580 like over online, over zoom, like that effect diminished effectively zero. 01:31:59.220 --> 01:32:05.220 Um, and I think that's like, like he's mentioned earlier, like we can't escape our human impulses 01:32:05.220 --> 01:32:10.620 and like people who are more attractive and like taller, uh, in person, like they get a 01:32:10.620 --> 01:32:16.780 lot of these advantages, but like, as we move to a lot of online interactions and zoom calls, um, 01:32:16.940 --> 01:32:18.820 the play field actually does get evened out a bunch. 01:32:19.180 --> 01:32:22.520 Assuming you can speak like proper English, there's always still that language barrier, which, 01:32:23.380 --> 01:32:27.220 you know, with AI, maybe it'll actually be gone soon. 01:32:27.220 --> 01:32:29.940 It's like, I actually saw something pretty crazy recently. 01:32:30.140 --> 01:32:37.140 A person had a live transcription of the interviewer asking questions and then hooked that up to 01:32:37.140 --> 01:32:37.680 chat GBT. 01:32:38.520 --> 01:32:39.480 Oh, my buddy made that. 01:32:39.720 --> 01:32:40.140 Oh, my buddy. 01:32:40.480 --> 01:32:40.620 Cool. 01:32:40.760 --> 01:32:40.880 Yeah. 01:32:40.980 --> 01:32:41.560 Oh, okay. 01:32:41.880 --> 01:32:42.120 Yeah. 01:32:42.680 --> 01:32:43.940 My boy Aiden made that tool. 01:32:44.020 --> 01:32:46.800 It's like, uh, uh, it's like your AI interview helper. 01:32:47.220 --> 01:32:50.400 And then it's like, it's like, you could, it shows what the asset and gives you like a script 01:32:50.400 --> 01:32:51.080 of what you could answer. 01:32:51.220 --> 01:32:54.540 And then the person used it to answer like these chemistry questions and they weren't 01:32:54.540 --> 01:32:56.060 trained in like chemistry at all. 01:32:56.740 --> 01:32:56.900 Yeah. 01:32:57.440 --> 01:33:01.600 I was like, yeah, the future of interviewing, how are you even fix that? 01:33:01.740 --> 01:33:01.940 I don't know. 01:33:01.940 --> 01:33:07.760 The crazier AI is like, there's a company selling to like offshore, like customer sales 01:33:07.760 --> 01:33:12.160 service where the person speaks and then the AI removes their accent. 01:33:12.360 --> 01:33:17.220 So they just sound like a person born in the USA, which is like, I don't know how I feel 01:33:17.220 --> 01:33:22.420 about that, but it probably is going to increase customer satisfaction, unfortunately, just 01:33:22.420 --> 01:33:26.520 because people don't like, people want to feel like they're talking to you, you know? 01:33:27.460 --> 01:33:28.800 So, I mean, yeah. 01:33:28.980 --> 01:33:31.700 Like, so it's going to be kind of wild. 01:33:31.840 --> 01:33:36.400 Like, I'm not like, even the weird things like the AI that makes it your eyes are always 01:33:36.400 --> 01:33:37.160 looking into the camera. 01:33:37.460 --> 01:33:37.560 Yeah. 01:33:37.720 --> 01:33:37.860 Yeah. 01:33:38.060 --> 01:33:41.480 So that in conjunction with the script on the right, in conjunction with making your 01:33:41.480 --> 01:33:43.580 voice, like five octaves deeper. 01:33:43.580 --> 01:33:48.340 So you sound like a giga chad and then like a deep fake to make yourself like the, make 01:33:48.340 --> 01:33:51.880 your receding hairline a little more or less than like all that, dude, it's going to be 01:33:51.880 --> 01:33:52.180 crazy. 01:33:52.340 --> 01:33:53.580 I don't know what the future is going to look like. 01:33:54.100 --> 01:33:58.960 It's like, you already see the influencers with filters and it's just taking that to the 01:33:58.960 --> 01:34:01.260 next level of like all this stuff put together. 01:34:01.400 --> 01:34:04.560 You can look and sound like anyone online effectively. 01:34:05.420 --> 01:34:06.400 Dude, wait till we meet. 01:34:06.540 --> 01:34:07.660 I'm like three foot two. 01:34:08.200 --> 01:34:09.920 I'm like, I'm actually not even Asian. 01:34:10.040 --> 01:34:10.140 No. 01:34:10.600 --> 01:34:13.060 This is just a really good filter. 01:34:13.560 --> 01:34:14.020 Yeah, exactly. 01:34:14.200 --> 01:34:14.340 Yeah. 01:34:15.480 --> 01:34:15.840 Okay. 01:34:15.880 --> 01:34:16.880 I probably got to get going soon. 01:34:16.920 --> 01:34:18.320 I got to go pick up my kids. 01:34:18.960 --> 01:34:20.960 Dude, genuinely fun talking with you. 01:34:21.120 --> 01:34:22.260 Genuinely fun talking with you, man. 01:34:22.500 --> 01:34:22.740 Yeah. 01:34:22.860 --> 01:34:29.460 I mean, definitely we should chat again with updates on your just life and also even get 01:34:29.460 --> 01:34:32.720 to get a chance to ask about your hobbies or like what you'd like to do in your downtime. 01:34:33.380 --> 01:34:35.040 Dude, we're just philosophizing, man. 01:34:35.040 --> 01:34:39.980 I'm like, we're solving the world's most toughest questions on this podcast. 01:34:40.840 --> 01:34:41.020 Yeah. 01:34:41.160 --> 01:34:43.900 In the future, this is how you solve all the problems. 01:34:44.000 --> 01:34:50.460 Have all your calls filtered so everyone's level-y, attractive, and boom. 01:34:51.000 --> 01:34:51.360 Boom. 01:34:51.460 --> 01:34:52.080 No more nepotism. 01:34:52.080 --> 01:34:52.280 There you go. 01:34:52.420 --> 01:34:53.440 Good way to end it. 01:34:53.700 --> 01:34:55.040 But yeah, thanks so much for having me on, dude. 01:34:55.180 --> 01:34:56.340 I don't do a lot of podcasts. 01:34:56.460 --> 01:34:58.600 Hopefully, this was entertaining for whoever's listening. 01:34:58.880 --> 01:35:00.920 Like, dude, well, let's do this again sometime. 01:35:01.820 --> 01:35:02.060 For sure. 01:35:02.300 --> 01:35:02.560 Awesome. 01:35:02.780 --> 01:35:03.600 Thanks for joining, David. 01:35:04.100 --> 01:35:07.420 And thank you to everyone listening to the Frankly Speaking podcast. 01:35:08.140 --> 01:35:09.020 I'll see you next time.