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Welcome to the Frankly Speaking podcast. Today I am joined by David Park, founder and CEO of Jenny AI. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly.

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It was all pronounced correctly. The name, the startup. Thank you so much for having me.

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Yeah, so David is a pretty hotshot founder. He has over a million users on his products already.

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Two million.

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Two million now. Wow. Jason Calakadakis from All In Podcast is one of his investors.

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I actually found him initially on Twitter. I don't remember what post he tweeted, but I thought it was insightful.

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So I followed him. He messaged me and here we are. So welcome, David.

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Dude, this is crazy. I've seen your TikToks probably for like the last, I don't even know, for a while.

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And then when I saw you followed me, your Twitter username is completely different from your TikTok username.

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Yeah.

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I was like, who is, I've seen this guy's face, but I don't know. It's like some, is it like your Chinese name or something?

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I was like, who is this guy? And then, yeah. And then once I figured out it was you, I was like, okay, I have to DM this guy.

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Yeah. So my Frank Nu handle was taken by some other random Frank Nu, I guess.

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And yeah, my Chinese name is what I use for a lot of stuff just because I can't get that unique handle everywhere.

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But if I ever become super rich, I'll buy out my handle everywhere.

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Yeah. I've tried to buy a few handles on Twitter as well. And it always ended catastrophically because I always post about my startup.

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So they think I'm like really rich.

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Yeah.

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Like, yeah, that's going to be $100,000. I'm like, dude, I don't have that money to buy a Twitter handle right now.

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Yeah. It's hilarious. Do you see how Elon just took the X handle from some dude?

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Yeah. Yeah. I have mixed feelings about that. But I mean, it really sucks for that dude. I think we're all in agreeance. It really fucking sucks for that X dude.

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Yeah.

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I'm surprised he didn't just offer him like some pity money. Like it would have been better than nothing. Even like, I don't know, 10K, which is like literally nothing to him.

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And people still would have been upset at 10K, but I feel like less so. But I guess he doesn't care.

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I mean, have you read his autobiography or his biography by Walter Isaacson, Elon's?

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Is that the most recent one? I read a previous one. I don't remember which one it was, though.

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It came out like, I think, two months ago.

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Oh, no, I haven't read that one.

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Well, he's famously like super mercurial about like cutting costs and like not wasting any money.

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So unfortunately, I think this X guy, he was he knew he could just get it for free.

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So he just decided to not add to the to his balance sheet with any more costs.

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Yeah, that kind of tracks with all the marketing that he's done.

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I don't know how like legitimate it is, though, like because in his first biography, he also has this story where he's like building his rockets and like he can't get rockets for a reasonable price in America.

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So he goes to Russia. Yeah, he is like used old ass rockets and, you know, engineers everything himself.

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But like, so I used to think like, oh, man, this dude's like Tony Stark, right?

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And then like the more I kind of learned about him and most of it, honestly, was from like Twitter and Reddit.

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They're like, oh, no, he's like, holy shit.

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Like, oh, this is like marketing propaganda.

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He like grew up rich, had a bunch of like emeralds in his pockets in New York or something like so like this entire persona that were sold or he sold, I guess.

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He was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no.

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Pretty real, because he like fired the Pepper Potts equivalent of him.

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It was like his long term.

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Yeah.

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Oh, no, that was in the other biography.

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Yeah, I remember that.

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Like the craziest part was he was like she asked for a raise or something.

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Yeah.

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He was like, let me absorb all of your job responsibilities for a week and then I'll see if I'll give you a raise.

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And he realized, oh, I could just do your job.

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And then I'm like, holy fuck.

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That was crazy to me.

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Like, I was thinking, you don't do that.

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No, you don't.

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I mean, I agree with you.

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I mean, the mythos of Elon Musk is now bigger than the human Elon Musk.

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But, you know, I think it's hard to disagree that he's like a really capable entrepreneur.

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Like the smartest people in the world who are like the best allocators of capital all want to back Elon Musk, which probably means that they know that he's a winner.

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A winner.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Regardless of all the like ethical implications, it's like you can't really argue that realistically, if you're wealthy or not already, like no one else could really have accomplished what he did.

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You know, obviously not a perfect person, very controversial in some ways.

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But I feel like it's somewhat hard not to be controversial these days.

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Yeah.

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It's, yeah, there's just people seem to be really addicted to outrage content and being upset and having the virtue signaling type of stuff online is, I don't know, super crazy.

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Like getting more crazy these days than the past couple of years.

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It makes you feel alive, you know?

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It makes you feel alive when you feel like someone else, if some celebrity just looks really fucking stupid in your eyes, then it just kind of like elevates yourself.

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It's like, oh, man, these celebrities are so stupid.

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And then you can just parrot that on Twitter and on stories and kind of makes you feel better by yourself, which is kind of unfortunate.

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I think it's very similar to like, before it was like thoughts and prayers on Facebook.

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And then it became like, oh, you know, change your profile picture to like this flag to whatever the current trending topic is.

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And now it's like, oh, make outrage content.

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Like not only do those things, but also make a video, calling them out or a tweet or like something.

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And then you get, you know, a lot of votes, upvotes or likes or hearts or whatever.

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Right.

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And you get that like dopamine hit and you're like, oh, this feels nice.

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Yeah.

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You immediately become like part of a tribe, right?

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You immediately become like accepted by the other people who are like have decided to make up their minds.

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And yeah, it's pretty crazy.

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I have a theory, though, like the next generation, like not our generation, but the one maybe maybe the next network, like when they're like maybe the 10 year olds now won't have as much of cancel culture because their entire life is documented online and everyone is bound to say some like really questionable, terrible things.

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And they're like teens, whereas we, you know, most of ours is like hidden just because we did it.

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We had like T-Mobile razors.

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And so like those didn't really like track all of our stuff.

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But hopefully it's a better time for them because you can't cancel anybody because everybody has like skeletons in their closet, like really visibly that you could see.

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Yeah, it's hilarious because everyone says like the Internet is forever.

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But like you said, we don't we didn't really experience that because most of our stuff is now they're extinct or just like was never recorded in the first place.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Which is maybe good, you know, but kind of bad because now the few things we do find, it's like, holy shit, do you guys see his old messages when he was 16?

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You know, it's like, I don't know, everyone sends really, you know, you're still learning at 16.

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You're kind of meant to mess up and fuck up at that time.

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It's weirder if you don't have like things that you learned from, I think, at that age.

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Yeah, it's like you repressed it all Ned Flanders style and blow up eventually.

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Right, right.

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I guess, first of all, let's talk more about Jenny AI, like what got you started on the concept?

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I've seen you've been working on this for a somewhat long time, it appears.

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Or like I went on your LinkedIn and it said you were Holtan or something.

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And then this Jenny.

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Yeah.

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So, I mean, I've been always pretty interested.

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I feel like a canon event for a lot of entrepreneurs is they watch The Social Network, the movie.

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Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So, I watched that on my, I think, eighth grade birthday, which means I was like 13, 14.

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And I thought that was so cool.

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I was like a nerd when you watch that movie.

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You think like, oh, this is like the apex of my coolness I could probably achieve, like in this movie, you know.

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You don't really like visualize yourself as like, you know, the Marvel superhero or like the frat star or whatever.

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But like, you know, I really felt like, okay, I could be, you know, probably this smart in my lifetime of this social network, which is kind of weird because it's actually kind of like a tragic movie.

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But I guess I was so young, I didn't really, I just saw like the, like the adventure that they had.

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But, yeah.

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So, anyways, I started my first company when I was 16.

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What you're referring to is Altum, which I started in my freshman year of college.

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And, yeah, I mean, I basically failed so many startups until Jenny AI, which I started four years ago.

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Even Jenny AI failed its first iterations.

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We started off as like an SEO tool, like a B2B tool.

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And that really failed to get traction.

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I don't know if you know of like Jasper AI, Copy AI.

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Yep.

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They like wiped the floor with me because one, I was like a snotty-nosed, like 21-year-old.

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And they were like 40-year-olds with a bunch of VC funding.

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And they just knew how distribution way better.

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But then once I lost to them, I kind of learned some of their playbook.

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And then I was able to try again because there's a blue ocean in academia of like researchers and college students who wanted to, you know, write with AI.

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So, I was able to really try again.

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So, we pivoted away from B2B to B2C to these, to academia.

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And, yeah, I mean, it's been going really well.

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Right now, our niche is like graduates, PhDs, and master's students.

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And, yeah, I mean, essentially, like I said, we're at 2 million users.

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But, you know, for three years, we were stuck at less than probably like 10,000 users.

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And it was only within the last 15 months we grew to 2 million users.

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And, you know, finally getting some semblance of success.

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Nice.

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Yeah, it sounds like that's a quite pretty good journey.

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And a lot of people underestimate the first couple of years.

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In your case, like almost like a decade where it's just not much going on.

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And then vertical growth and the hockey stick.

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And then what do you think really made the difference?

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Was it more like the niching down to the graduate students?

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And then that blew up.

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And then was it also like your social media presence that did a lot of marketing?

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Was it more word of mouth, et cetera?

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Yeah, I mean, I wish there was one, like, sexy answer.

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I probably could make up a sexy answer of, like, we solved this one key thing.

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And this trick is what you need to write.

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But, like, you know, there are probably small things I picked up from my first startup, I feel, when I was 16 years old.

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All the way up until, you know, my latest iteration of Jenny, where all the things just started to click.

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And I do think it's kind of holistic where, yeah, I mean, I do think that it's not just, you can't just do one thing correctly.

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Unless you're doing it at, like, the 1% level of, like, expert level.

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But, you know, it wasn't like we were doing that.

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It was just we started to talk more to users.

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We started to actually cut out all the superfluous features in our product.

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We started to be more lean.

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Just, like, really basic things that we started to do correctly.

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And, yeah, I guess the big thing, actually, if I had to pick one, is probably more just,

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going back to, like, the social network, you know, when I watched that movie, I thought I was the next Mark Zuckerberg.

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I thought, like, oh, I'm a founder.

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I'm going to make a billion-dollar company.

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But it turns out, like, almost all of my decisions were wrong.

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Like, anything based on my gut was just kind of incorrect.

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Almost always.

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And then even if I go and I talk and I listen to users, they're still wrong some percentage of the time.

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Like, some percent of it is still wrong.

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But at the very least, it trended in the right direction.

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So it would be, like, somewhat right.

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And then I would continue to talk to users.

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And then I would correct it, correct it, correct it.

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And then we'd eventually make something that users actually like to use.

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So, yeah, I would say a lot of it has to do with kind of removing your own ego, I would say.

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Which sucks because, like, I feel like entrepreneurship attracts people with large egos.

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It takes someone with a very large ego to, like, get punched in the face, like, literally every single day.

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And then still wake up and be like, I'm going to make a billion-dollar company.

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But in order to also succeed, you need to have the inverse of that.

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It's, like, a beautiful, like, dichotomy of, like, you have to be, you have to really believe in yourself.

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But you have to also, like, really not take yourself seriously and just think, how can I make the best product?

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How can I listen to my users?

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So, yeah, I would say those are some takeaways.

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Yeah, so some common themes I heard throughout what you said and what I've read elsewhere is really just getting user feedback, iteration.

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And also, like you said, it's not one big thing, but a lot of small things that you've done throughout all the previous experiences.

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And it adds up.

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And after, like, the continual iteration, at some point, the, like, amalgamation of all the experiences and benefits just turns into something that people want to use.

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No, I mean, that's, like, can we, like, deepfig your answer onto my voice?

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Because that was, like, way more succinct than whatever the fuck I just said.

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So, like, let's just roll with that.

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Yeah, I mean, speaking of, like, deepfigs and stuff, I've seen OpenAI, like, add more and more and more features.

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Like, one of the huge things that a lot of companies wanted initially when they saw this, they're like, all right, how do we train these models on our own internal data so we can read our documents, summarize internal training, all the, like, stuff that they don't actually want the training data to be based off of.

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Yeah.

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They want their personalized OpenAI.

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So, a lot of people were trying to make that.

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And then I think in the past week, OpenAI just released something.

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It's like, hey, we're letting you do this now.

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You know, upload a document.

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You can do this.

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Yeah.

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Are you worried that, I guess, they're going to eat your lunch?

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So, like, similar to, like, how Amazon kind of, like, compares products that are doing well.

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They're just like, oh, you know, this product's selling well because they have all the data.

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Right, right.

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Right.

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They have all the data.

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And they're like, okay, we'll just undercut them, kill them.

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And then, you know, once they're dead, we'll just sell our own version.

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Yeah.

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So, I guess if, like, you know, GPT-4 access is ever cut off, is that still, like, a kind of, like, a central point to your startup and potentially, like, a lot of the other startups in the past year?

206
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Or do you think that eventually you might be able to, like, I don't know, replace it with an open source model, like, like, a llama or something like that?

207
00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:20,860
Yeah, yeah.

208
00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,000
I mean, I hear two questions.

209
00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:29,780
So, I'll start with the first thing of, like, am I afraid that, it sounds like the questions are, am I ever afraid OpenAI is going to cut off access?

210
00:14:29,940 --> 00:14:31,360
And if it does, what will happen to us?

211
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,800
And the other one is, like, am I afraid OpenAI will ever create a, like, they'll ever compete with us?

212
00:14:36,940 --> 00:14:41,640
I guess the one I think about more is the competition part.

213
00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:50,800
Like, I will say it's not outside the realm of possibilities where OpenAI maybe makes, like, a chat GPT.

214
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:59,700
Like, they go out of chat and they create some, like, editor and they create some, like, document where it has AI-first capabilities.

215
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:11,340
But, you know, I feel like one competitive or one moat that we have that isn't really obvious is that we're going after, like, academia.

216
00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:18,740
Like, there's still a lot of journals where they don't accept AI-written content or it's kind of ambiguous what AI-written content.

217
00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:19,960
And definitely in college, right?

218
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:21,260
It's case by case.

219
00:15:21,340 --> 00:15:22,640
Some classes allow AI content.

220
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:23,460
Some classes don't.

221
00:15:24,300 --> 00:15:32,780
And so being in kind of that legal gray area, initially, it might seem kind of off-putting and it might scare a founder, I think.

222
00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:44,760
But actually, being in that gray area is, like, one of the safest places to be because you know that these larger incumbents are more scared of, like, doubling down and, like, going – getting – because bad PR for us, you know, we can only go down to zero.

223
00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:54,860
And, like, sure, we make, like, some money now, but it's definitely not nearly as painful as, like, Google or, you know, Microsoft Word or, you know, OpenAI.

224
00:15:55,060 --> 00:16:04,600
If they start being labeled as, like, a cheating company or they're hurting the intelligence of, you know, students, these sorts of things can really affect stock prices.

225
00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:06,240
They can affect, like, internal morale.

226
00:16:06,500 --> 00:16:12,240
Like, so I actually think that insulates us a lot, that moving in the gray area.

227
00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:17,460
And there's a lot of examples of, like, I think, like, Uber, Airbnb, Coinbase, like, they were also able to kind of ride in that.

228
00:16:17,460 --> 00:16:19,240
They were building, like, the playbook.

229
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:25,400
They were building the legislation as they were kind of growing, which protected them as well.

230
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:31,860
So – but that isn't to say that I think that competition isn't something that I think about or something that I'm scared of.

231
00:16:31,940 --> 00:16:33,420
Or not scared of, something that I'm mindful of.

232
00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:38,180
But I just don't think that it's something in the near future.

233
00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,600
But watch – but life is very funny.

234
00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:46,680
So watch this podcast come out and then I open it and immediately release, like – that'd be pretty awesome as well.

235
00:16:46,940 --> 00:16:48,040
But, yeah.

236
00:16:48,060 --> 00:16:51,740
And then the other thing is we have experimented with other models as well.

237
00:16:53,380 --> 00:16:54,140
I won't lie.

238
00:16:54,220 --> 00:17:04,820
I would say if they cut off, like, GPT 3.5 access, I don't think that'd be a problem because I think we could get to – like, there are other alternatives out there where we could get, like, pretty similar results, I think.

239
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,860
But GPT-4 is probably one of the leading models right now.

240
00:17:08,940 --> 00:17:10,640
That would probably be a little more of a headache.

241
00:17:11,220 --> 00:17:14,700
But with enough funding and with enough time, I think that also wouldn't be an issue.

242
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:22,720
We also – we were – before GPT-4 came out, we were, like, deploying – we deployed our own model.

243
00:17:23,380 --> 00:17:27,700
And we were, like, thinking of sponsoring a PhD student at our alma mater, UCSD.

244
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:33,880
But the conclusion we came down to was, like, OpenAI is just a monster.

245
00:17:34,020 --> 00:17:34,780
They have all the talent.

246
00:17:35,020 --> 00:17:36,200
They have more money than God.

247
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:45,240
Even if we were somehow able to get parity with GPT-4, once GPT-5 comes out, like, all the work we put in would just get – it would just be wasted.

248
00:17:45,500 --> 00:17:50,760
Because, yeah, I mean, it's – we're, like, a nine-person team.

249
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,840
Many of us, like, this is some of our first jobs.

250
00:17:54,340 --> 00:18:02,680
So it's unclear if we could, like, beat OpenAI at their game of creating these humongous and, like, miraculous LLFs.

251
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:04,820
Yeah, that makes sense.

252
00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,360
And then to follow up a bit on something that you mentioned about legislation.

253
00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:11,080
So, like, you're protected by great area.

254
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:24,300
But at the same time, it also seems like a lot of the tech giants are now trying to kind of pull up the ladder behind them by introducing new legislation to make it financially unlikely for startups to kind of chase after them.

255
00:18:24,660 --> 00:18:30,260
So you mentioned how, like, already it was quite unlikely for a small team to compete just based on their resources alone.

256
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:37,960
But now, you know, them in combination with Microsoft, Google, kind of the incumbent tech giants have been talking to Congress.

257
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:43,740
They're trying to introduce legislation that will effectively cripple a lot of AI development.

258
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:45,060
It always sounds so good, right?

259
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,500
They're like, oh, we need this legislation for AI safety.

260
00:18:48,060 --> 00:18:55,740
And, like, the only things that, like – the only companies that, like, fulfill this requirement happen to be the people that's, like, paying the most money to the government.

261
00:18:55,740 --> 00:19:06,480
Yeah, man, I mean, at some point, like, if I were talking to a VC, I would probably have some, like, magic answer of, like, but actually – and then flip it on its head.

262
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:07,840
But, no, that kind of sucks.

263
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:09,180
Like, I actually don't know.

264
00:19:09,460 --> 00:19:13,760
The best we could do is, like, you know, I think that the entire world is going to be AI assisted.

265
00:19:14,420 --> 00:19:16,700
So I think that what I'm doing is pretty interesting.

266
00:19:17,020 --> 00:19:19,880
I think that the whole entire education system is probably going to change.

267
00:19:20,020 --> 00:19:21,060
It's going to be forced to change.

268
00:19:21,460 --> 00:19:23,500
I think that's kind of exciting to be on the other side of that.

269
00:19:24,700 --> 00:19:30,200
And, yeah, so I'm going to keep doing what we're doing, and we'll see how that goes.

270
00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:32,060
But, yeah, you're totally right.

271
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,260
I mean, I noticed it as well.

272
00:19:34,820 --> 00:19:38,160
Like, regulatory capture is, like – I mean, it's kind of like the playbook, right?

273
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:39,120
You get as big as you can.

274
00:19:39,180 --> 00:19:39,900
You become a monopoly.

275
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,820
You try to, like, rewrite it so nobody else can compete with you.

276
00:19:44,060 --> 00:19:47,300
And then you just kind of coast and become the biggest company.

277
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:49,900
Like, you know, it's, like, it's not fun.

278
00:19:50,060 --> 00:19:51,740
But it's also not new.

279
00:19:52,620 --> 00:20:00,600
I find it really interesting that they acted so quickly on this front just because when you look at the crypto industry being regulated, it's taken forever.

280
00:20:01,260 --> 00:20:04,740
Like, it's been, like, a decade, and there hasn't been, like, concrete answers.

281
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:10,420
And with, like, Coinbase is really the only company pushing for answers in any manner.

282
00:20:10,540 --> 00:20:15,500
I think they actually sued the government, one of the – I forget which branch or, like, what division.

283
00:20:16,140 --> 00:20:17,620
But, like, hey, like, give us some answers.

284
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:18,720
Like, we want to comply.

285
00:20:18,740 --> 00:20:18,960
Dude, yeah.

286
00:20:19,620 --> 00:20:20,460
It's messed up.

287
00:20:20,460 --> 00:20:27,520
And it wasn't – because I think Sam Bankman-Fried is, like, the second highest donor ever to the U.S. government, I think.

288
00:20:28,360 --> 00:20:28,820
On paper.

289
00:20:29,140 --> 00:20:30,240
With a paper trail, yeah.

290
00:20:30,700 --> 00:20:31,040
Yeah, yeah.

291
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:32,040
True.

292
00:20:32,300 --> 00:20:39,020
But, yeah, and despite SPF's all that money, like, it doesn't seem like we got that many answers.

293
00:20:39,980 --> 00:20:40,460
And –

294
00:20:40,460 --> 00:20:45,820
Well, I think his play was that he was trying to do regulatory capture as well, but for himself.

295
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:46,840
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

296
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:48,700
But then, you know, L kind of fell apart.

297
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,900
He actually just got convicted – it was, like, one of the shortest trials ever.

298
00:20:52,020 --> 00:20:53,600
It was, like, 30 minutes in and out.

299
00:20:53,700 --> 00:20:55,320
Jury's, like, guilty on everything.

300
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:56,940
He got convicted on all counts, too.

301
00:20:56,940 --> 00:20:57,120
Yeah, yeah.

302
00:20:57,260 --> 00:21:01,860
It was, like, every single one, which was fucking – he's going to be in jail until, like –

303
00:21:01,860 --> 00:21:03,980
It's effectively a life sentence.

304
00:21:04,180 --> 00:21:06,120
It's, like, over 100 years altogether.

305
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:07,240
Crazy.

306
00:21:07,660 --> 00:21:12,300
Which I think a lot of other people were surprised about because everyone was, like, oh, you know, government's corrupt.

307
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:13,200
He donated all this money.

308
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:13,940
He's going to be fine.

309
00:21:14,380 --> 00:21:14,580
Yeah.

310
00:21:15,380 --> 00:21:18,680
But then, I guess the other side of it, people were saying, like, well,

311
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,900
it's not just, like, donating, giving people money.

312
00:21:20,980 --> 00:21:22,080
It's, like, also about the leverage.

313
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:23,700
Like, what blackmail do you have on them?

314
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:29,060
And I just finished watching Succession, so I was thinking, like, oh, that's kind of an interesting take.

315
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:30,440
Wait, is that actually what happens?

316
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:31,800
Wait, can you educate me on that?

317
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:38,720
Do, like, rich, powerful people, like, is there actually evidence of them having blackmail on these government officials?

318
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,280
I mean, the most popular and infamous cases, Donald Trump in Russia, right?

319
00:21:43,460 --> 00:21:49,780
Like, the theory is that he went over to Russia, got honey trapped, and, you know, they recorded him.

320
00:21:49,780 --> 00:21:50,740
I totally believe that, too.

321
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:51,660
I totally believe that, too.

322
00:21:51,660 --> 00:21:51,680
I believe it, too.

323
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,840
Like, it's an extremely plausible story.

324
00:21:53,980 --> 00:21:58,180
Like, I think a lot of times when people, you know, these are conspiracy theories.

325
00:21:58,340 --> 00:21:59,680
Like, that sounds like something he would do.

326
00:21:59,740 --> 00:22:01,040
That sounds like something Russia would do.

327
00:22:01,420 --> 00:22:04,820
It would make sense why he was so buddy-buddy with Putin during his presidency.

328
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:13,280
And so, like, you know, that's just a high-profile case, but I'm sure that kind of stuff, like, all these politicians have dirt on each other.

329
00:22:13,500 --> 00:22:17,500
And, like, the main thing preventing them from coming out with it is, like, they also have dirt on themselves.

330
00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:26,260
And even with, like, the Epstein case, which was never resolved, and, like, the entire American peoples were all like, hey, release the list, release the list.

331
00:22:26,300 --> 00:22:28,100
And they're like, nope, we're not going to release the list.

332
00:22:28,100 --> 00:22:34,460
It's just, like, you know, these skeletons, like, except for the rich and powerful, it's not the skeletons.

333
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:40,600
It's, like, giant, behemoth dinosaur bones in their closets that, you know, we'll never see.

334
00:22:40,700 --> 00:22:52,320
But I feel like it's – this is really simplified, but I saw this, like, chart where it shows, like, here's how people behave when you're, like, extremely poor, like, middle class and well-off.

335
00:22:52,580 --> 00:23:01,540
And then the well-off section and the extremely poor section still – they share a lot of parallels in the sense that, like, who you know is one of the most important, but for different reasons.

336
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,600
So when, like, you're really poor, you need to know people just to survive.

337
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:15,940
Like, you need to borrow someone's lawnmower, get your neighbor to babysit the kids, you know, take someone's car for a job interview, and your neighborhood becomes, like, an extension as part of your resources.

338
00:23:16,620 --> 00:23:16,980
Right.

339
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:29,560
When you're really wealthy, you don't need any of that, but you also don't care about your career as much because, like, if you come from wealth or, like, a family money, then it's like, okay, well, do you know, like, Beyonce?

340
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,900
Are you friends with, like, I don't know, LeBron?

341
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,020
You've been on Jeff Bezos' second mega yacht.

342
00:23:36,220 --> 00:23:38,200
That's where all the business dealings occur.

343
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:38,920
Exactly.

344
00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:43,780
So it's, like, at that point, you know, I don't know anyone in that wealth category.

345
00:23:43,940 --> 00:23:52,880
Like, I know some billionaires on paper who haven't been able – or not liquid, but, like, I don't know any actual rich people in the upper echelon of, like –

346
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:57,480
I mean, you're probably the closest person because you have a semi-connection to Jason, but I don't even think he's a billionaire.

347
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:58,240
I think he's –

348
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,640
He's a – he's famously a centi-millionaire.

349
00:24:00,660 --> 00:24:01,700
Yeah, a centi-millionaire.

350
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:02,420
He calls himself a centi-millionaire.

351
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,420
Out of the other three members who are billionaires on this podcast.

352
00:24:06,580 --> 00:24:07,880
I don't know if Sachs – is Sachs a billionaire?

353
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:08,700
I'm not entirely sure.

354
00:24:08,900 --> 00:24:12,820
I think in terms of wealth, Tramath is the wealthiest by far.

355
00:24:12,820 --> 00:24:16,980
And then it goes Sachs and Freeberg are probably somewhat equal.

356
00:24:17,660 --> 00:24:26,740
And then Jason – I mean, it's – I think it's both funny and somewhat unnecessary, but, like, that they shit on Jason for being the poorest.

357
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,300
But it's not, like, them having wealth matters a whole lot.

358
00:24:31,420 --> 00:24:35,200
Like, they're at the stage where it's, like, gaining more wealth to gain it, I guess.

359
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:36,640
So, I don't know.

360
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:49,960
Yeah, yeah, no, I do think that Jason is – like, his Uber story is pretty crazy where he joined the angel round of Uber and he got, like, a 4,000x return on his money.

361
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:57,020
But, yeah, I do respect Jason as well because he's, like – he was an entrepreneur before he was an investor.

362
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,740
So, he's, like, an operator and a builder and an investor.

363
00:25:00,500 --> 00:25:08,780
Whereas, yeah, I mean, like, if we just go more generally into investors, like, there are some investors that have –

364
00:25:08,780 --> 00:25:09,880
I've never built startups before.

365
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:16,980
And I think that of the ones I've interacted with, I'm not as big of a fan of them, generally.

366
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:26,200
Yeah, I guess, like, in terms of the returns for all of their funds, because, like, most – Sachs has a fund, Jason has a fund.

367
00:25:26,860 --> 00:25:28,380
I think Chamath has a fund as well.

368
00:25:28,940 --> 00:25:31,840
I don't know if Freeberg actually has a fund or if he just builds companies.

369
00:25:32,580 --> 00:25:33,680
But it doesn't –

370
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:34,440
I think he invests.

371
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:35,940
I don't know if he has a fund, but I think he invests.

372
00:25:35,940 --> 00:25:39,980
Yeah, he invests, like, his personal money, but it's not like – he doesn't, like, hire people.

373
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:41,600
And it's not, like, his main thing.

374
00:25:41,660 --> 00:25:44,180
Whereas, like, the other three, it feels like that's their main thing at this point.

375
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:45,140
Right.

376
00:25:45,940 --> 00:25:50,900
And it doesn't seem like, as far as I know, any of them are doing that well with their investments.

377
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:52,360
Like, Freeberg actually made a comment.

378
00:25:52,460 --> 00:25:54,920
He's like, oh, yeah, you know, you tally up all my investments.

379
00:25:55,140 --> 00:26:00,140
I made, like, pretty much the same as a B500 over the past decade or whatever.

380
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,260
And these are people who have access to, like, all the deals, like, the Uber-esque deals.

381
00:26:04,620 --> 00:26:04,780
Yeah.

382
00:26:04,780 --> 00:26:06,360
Like, if they want a deal, they could probably get in.

383
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:07,280
Right.

384
00:26:08,060 --> 00:26:09,340
So, I guess – I don't know.

385
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:16,660
At that point, it's, like, kind of ties back into what you said earlier, but, like, hubris of, like, getting rid of your ego.

386
00:26:16,660 --> 00:26:28,180
But I still think that, like, especially for people who've been on top for so long, who've done so well in their careers, the mindset is always, like, oh, well, you know, this is another thing that I'll gain expertise in and I'll do really well.

387
00:26:28,700 --> 00:26:34,820
But the results have shown that it hasn't been great, to my knowledge.

388
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:45,000
Like, I don't know what their personal – their books look like on the internals, but from, like, tech getting destroyed, both public and private, much more so in the past year, effectively.

389
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,480
So, I'd be surprised to see if they have been outperforming.

390
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:52,000
Yeah.

391
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:57,500
I mean, I don't know who – I think Munger recently was on a podcast and was saying, like, VC is basically just, like, gambling.

392
00:26:57,980 --> 00:26:58,180
Yeah.

393
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:09,200
And it's, like, pretty glorified, which, you know, as someone who's been rejected by many VCs, that's, like, makes me somewhat happy to hear that they don't really know what they're doing.

394
00:27:09,540 --> 00:27:16,120
Obviously, there are probably some firms that know what they're doing, like Sequoia or Andreessen Horowitz.

395
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:25,340
Although, lately, you know, it's not entirely sure if lately they're doing that well, but it seems like they have some track record of knowing how to make smart investments.

396
00:27:25,700 --> 00:27:32,720
But, yeah, I think the funny thing is, like, Chamath had, like – he once compared his returns in one of his, like, Shepard or Lowe's.

397
00:27:33,060 --> 00:27:45,460
Like, if we're talking about a little bit of ego, Chamath definitely has – but, like, at the same time, Chamath was the brain behind Facebook's growth, getting to, like, a billion users.

398
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,580
And I don't want to underplay that either.

399
00:27:47,780 --> 00:27:50,120
You know, it's easy to kind of, like – he's made his money.

400
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:51,860
He's now chilling.

401
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:58,000
He's in Italy all the time with his beautiful wife, and, like, he's having – he's just drinking wine and gambling.

402
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,380
So, it's unclear whether he still has that, like, fire.

403
00:28:01,780 --> 00:28:04,600
But when he did have that fire, he was, like, pretty scary.

404
00:28:05,060 --> 00:28:09,160
He was able to make Facebook, like, one of the fastest-growing startups in history, which is pretty nuts.

405
00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:14,000
Yeah, so, like, a bit more, I guess, background Chamath for listeners slash viewers.

406
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,260
He was a really early employee at Facebook.

407
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,080
He effectively founded the data science team.

408
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,800
He kind of created data science, what it is today, right?

409
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:25,080
That's his claim.

410
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,740
I don't know how true that is, but that is his claim.

411
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:36,580
And then he was also a really early investor in Bitcoin, one of the very early people to kind of call that being a big thing.

412
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:43,160
And, yeah, he's the wealthiest person on the pod, and was actually the original reason I even tuned in in the first place.

413
00:28:43,260 --> 00:28:44,520
Like, I didn't know any of the other guys.

414
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:45,280
Right.

415
00:28:45,460 --> 00:28:53,180
And so, like, for all the crap that he gets and all the, like, statements that he makes on Twitter where he gets kind of dunked on to, like, the one that David was referring to.

416
00:28:53,260 --> 00:28:56,700
He's like, oh, yeah, comparing my fund to Buffett's.

417
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:58,080
And people were like, dude.

418
00:28:59,940 --> 00:29:00,980
Because it wasn't quite –

419
00:29:00,980 --> 00:29:01,760
He don't do it no more.

420
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,560
He doesn't do it anymore.

421
00:29:03,820 --> 00:29:05,620
Yeah, because he got wrecked.

422
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:06,100
Yeah.

423
00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:10,120
But, yeah, I mean, he's definitely done a lot of great things.

424
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,340
And he also has made some pretty outlandish statements.

425
00:29:13,500 --> 00:29:19,300
I think the above the line, below the line thing was pretty big for a while during the whole Ukraine thing.

426
00:29:19,820 --> 00:29:20,020
Yeah.

427
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:22,880
But, yeah, I mean –

428
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:24,260
I disagree with that statement.

429
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:31,920
But at the same time, I kind of, like – the fact that those statements exist kind of shows that these people are just, like – they genuinely just get together and just talk shit.

430
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:33,900
And they just talk, like, what's really on their mind.

431
00:29:34,380 --> 00:29:36,160
And I think that's what Chamath really believes.

432
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,060
And it's pretty bad the way he phrased it.

433
00:29:39,540 --> 00:29:49,120
You know, but I do think we miss, like – like, there's too much varnish and there's too much, like, carefully crafted things, like, in terms of media right now.

434
00:29:49,340 --> 00:30:02,660
And I do feel like the All In podcast is – it genuinely feels like they could – like, at any given week, they could say something that's just, like, really – that's actually somewhat – like, that's actually kind of edgy.

435
00:30:02,860 --> 00:30:07,320
And actually could be outrageous, but something that they actually believe in, maybe needs to be heard.

436
00:30:07,580 --> 00:30:09,420
In that case, I think he shouldn't have said that.

437
00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:15,740
But, like, there's some cases where, like, they say something that maybe mainstream media, like, is too afraid to kind of dive into, which I think is nice.

438
00:30:16,180 --> 00:30:16,360
Yeah.

439
00:30:16,460 --> 00:30:22,840
I feel like from that point onwards, all the members have been a lot more guarded and more resourced.

440
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:23,380
Oh, you think so?

441
00:30:23,620 --> 00:30:23,860
Yeah.

442
00:30:24,060 --> 00:30:24,320
Okay.

443
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:24,820
Yeah.

444
00:30:24,820 --> 00:30:30,120
Like, I think – and that was also kind of where they started a lot of their own growth for that podcast.

445
00:30:30,260 --> 00:30:36,500
Like, I think that was somewhat of a turning point where they were starting to gain steam and become, like, really one of the top podcasts in the world.

446
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:43,520
And now I think they're kind of cemently, you know, top two or three in terms of, like, business, tech, political stuff.

447
00:30:43,860 --> 00:30:52,120
But at that point – I feel like the podcasts before that point were a bit more candid, whereas now it's, like, they've received so much blowback from that one.

448
00:30:53,540 --> 00:30:58,260
And then even, like, Saks getting a lot of pushback for a lot of his statements.

449
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,360
And now he effectively has, like, a team who does the research for him.

450
00:31:01,420 --> 00:31:02,460
And he'll, like, show all the research.

451
00:31:02,660 --> 00:31:07,080
And, like, each one of his statements he makes, he has so much, like, supporting history and facts.

452
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,200
You can't listen to the podcast anymore, right?

453
00:31:09,260 --> 00:31:10,560
Because it's always, like, throw up that graph.

454
00:31:10,900 --> 00:31:12,960
And then, like, if you're listening, you're like, fuck.

455
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:14,160
Yeah, like, what is going on?

456
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:15,420
Yeah, I don't know what's happening.

457
00:31:16,380 --> 00:31:18,420
Yeah, so it's – I agree with you.

458
00:31:18,460 --> 00:31:22,540
I really enjoyed the show in the past because I felt like there was a lot of candor.

459
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:23,480
There was a lot of things.

460
00:31:23,700 --> 00:31:27,000
And, like, you know, these are rich dudes who were, like, even if they cancel, who cares, really?

461
00:31:27,140 --> 00:31:30,360
Because worst thing, they go back to their lives doing their VC stuff.

462
00:31:30,900 --> 00:31:31,040
Right.

463
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:42,840
But, yeah, I do feel like they have a certain, like, influence in Washington now because so many people listen and so many official, like, rich and important people listen to it.

464
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:47,260
But I also think that there is, like you kind of said, previously there wasn't a veneer.

465
00:31:47,340 --> 00:31:48,620
I feel like there definitely is one now.

466
00:31:48,820 --> 00:31:50,660
Like, it's not – there's, like, more stuff.

467
00:31:50,660 --> 00:31:50,860
That's fair.

468
00:31:51,180 --> 00:31:52,040
I think that's fair, yeah.

469
00:31:53,500 --> 00:31:56,940
And, yeah, I guess that does suck.

470
00:31:57,300 --> 00:32:01,060
I mean, like, it sounds like you're pretty disappointed by the veneer thing as well.

471
00:32:01,140 --> 00:32:03,340
So do you, like, not listen or not like it as much anymore?

472
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,040
I don't listen as often anymore.

473
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:10,780
Like, I'll maybe tune in sometimes when I'm really bored and thinking, like, okay, I haven't seen it all in for a bit.

474
00:32:10,780 --> 00:32:13,400
And I'll skip through, like, the parts that I'm somewhat interested in.

475
00:32:14,780 --> 00:32:16,500
But, like, yeah, I don't know.

476
00:32:16,580 --> 00:32:19,960
I feel like they kind of – it almost peaked with that controversy in my mind.

477
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:20,780
Damn.

478
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:27,480
But, you know, by the numbers, they're still doing, obviously, much better than they were before.

479
00:32:27,620 --> 00:32:34,980
But I guess, like, for me, I think the part that I enjoyed the most was, like, you said them speaking their minds.

480
00:32:35,060 --> 00:32:37,440
And, like, when Tremont said that, maybe he didn't phrase it in the best way.

481
00:32:37,540 --> 00:32:39,520
But, you know, it was obvious that's what he felt.

482
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:39,900
Yeah.

483
00:32:39,980 --> 00:32:42,800
Like, it was his real true feelings.

484
00:32:43,380 --> 00:32:43,520
Yeah.

485
00:32:43,580 --> 00:32:49,240
I do think – it kind of, like – I think it's a reason why people like Joe Rogan a lot.

486
00:32:49,420 --> 00:32:54,940
So even though he's not, like, the most informed person, he just says stuff, like, very clearly, like, without –

487
00:32:54,940 --> 00:32:56,160
It's just refreshing, right?

488
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:56,420
Right.

489
00:32:56,420 --> 00:32:57,600
It's just kind of refreshing to hear that.

490
00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:57,760
Right.

491
00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:59,060
Like, with all the BS, right?

492
00:32:59,100 --> 00:33:01,900
Like, everyone in media, it's, like, so much BS.

493
00:33:03,740 --> 00:33:13,920
And I think, kind of transitioning a bit, it's interesting to see the propaganda and, like, how tales get spun in the different, like, hemispheres of the world.

494
00:33:14,020 --> 00:33:20,460
So, like, in the West, I mean, I think most people at this point know there's, like, a certain level of propaganda in the news.

495
00:33:20,460 --> 00:33:22,920
And then in Europe, like, the news is quite a bit different.

496
00:33:23,580 --> 00:33:33,100
And then Chinese news or a lot of Asian news, which people don't typically have access to over here because, like, language barrier and why would they even look over there, also is, like, very different.

497
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:43,380
And, like, I have relatives who are still in China, grandparents or parents, I guess, who, like, listen to a lot of more, like, Asian news or just global news.

498
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:58,980
And it's really interesting to see the kind of stuff that gets reported on and, like, the slant that the article has and even how, like, reporting now, like, they're in such a race to be breaking news that they'll, like, cite tweets or, like, just completely false information.

499
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,960
But they're, like, oh, shoot, this other news organization, they just published this article.

500
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:03,500
We got to go.

501
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:04,560
Like, we got to get off this.

502
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,020
Like, we can't be falling behind.

503
00:34:06,140 --> 00:34:07,300
And it's kind of crazy.

504
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:08,820
Yeah, incentives are really weird, right?

505
00:34:08,820 --> 00:34:14,520
Like, if, like, I was thinking about the other day, I was wondering, like, how can you even fix the news?

506
00:34:14,700 --> 00:34:18,120
How can you fix, like, how can you fix those incentives?

507
00:34:18,500 --> 00:34:28,340
Where, like, if the incentive is always to drive the most traffic, drive the most clicks, then you're always going to be, one, to be engaging in that behavior of, like, one, it has to be breaking.

508
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,560
And, two, you want to be getting the most salacious things out.

509
00:34:32,900 --> 00:34:32,980
Right.

510
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,700
So if it's breaking and salacious, that combination is pretty dangerous because a lot of times it's just going to be wrong.

511
00:34:38,580 --> 00:34:40,160
Like, later down the line.

512
00:34:40,300 --> 00:34:45,960
But if you don't engage in that, then you will definitely just have less subscriptions.

513
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,020
And, like, news organizations are already dying.

514
00:34:50,240 --> 00:34:55,640
Like, they're not really able to monetize properly anymore because there's just abundance of information for free everywhere.

515
00:34:56,300 --> 00:34:59,960
And so if you don't engage in that, you'll accelerate your own demise even faster.

516
00:35:00,060 --> 00:35:02,900
So I don't even know, like, what the solution to that is, which is kind of sad.

517
00:35:04,780 --> 00:35:07,220
Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's no even solution here.

518
00:35:07,220 --> 00:35:08,620
It's just a comment of, like, it's just kind of sad.

519
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:09,540
I don't know how to fix that.

520
00:35:10,460 --> 00:35:12,680
Yeah, I don't think it'll ever be fixed, really.

521
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:19,120
Just, like, unless you fix human behavior or psychology itself, it's, like, that's always going to be a thing driving eyeballs.

522
00:35:19,260 --> 00:35:26,160
And even, like, when you look at the most popular streamers in the world, it's, like, iShowSpeed, Aiden Ross.

523
00:35:26,380 --> 00:35:30,780
Like, their appeal is because they're so outrageous.

524
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,140
And to, like, the younger audience, like, that's what they want.

525
00:35:33,300 --> 00:35:36,060
Like, they're, like, this generation's Logan Paul.

526
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:37,560
Like, Logan Paul used to be that guy.

527
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:38,300
Right.

528
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,040
But now he's kind of older, so it can't really be that guy anymore.

529
00:35:42,260 --> 00:35:47,200
It's, like, getting weird because he's a dude in his 30s who's appealing to, you know, young teens.

530
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:47,920
Like, that doesn't work.

531
00:35:48,020 --> 00:35:51,200
So it's, like, you need a new generation of young teens who...

532
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,520
And I don't know who was Logan Paul before him.

533
00:35:54,500 --> 00:35:55,060
Maybe, like...

534
00:35:55,060 --> 00:35:55,380
I don't know.

535
00:35:55,380 --> 00:35:57,080
It's probably, like, who was before Logan Paul.

536
00:35:57,180 --> 00:35:59,200
Maybe, like, maybe before YouTube.

537
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,260
Maybe, like, the Paris Hiltons, the Lindsay Lohans.

538
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:01,860
I don't know.

539
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:02,380
I don't even know.

540
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:07,180
Yeah, it's, like, social media wasn't really much of a thing before then, I guess.

541
00:36:07,220 --> 00:36:10,140
So, like, there wasn't really a chance for anyone to be that.

542
00:36:10,740 --> 00:36:10,980
Yeah.

543
00:36:12,140 --> 00:36:12,540
But...

544
00:36:12,540 --> 00:36:16,220
On that comment of just, like, social media, it's also weird, too.

545
00:36:16,220 --> 00:36:25,800
Like, if you look at Mr. Beast's thumbnails or, like, Mr. Beast's videos, like, this guy is, like, probably the world's foremost leading expert on, like, thumbnails.

546
00:36:26,300 --> 00:36:34,260
And what it's devolved to is just, like, a super spray-painted, like, his face going, like, just, like, a bewildered face.

547
00:36:35,340 --> 00:36:38,720
And, yeah, I mean, that's, like, that is the gold standard.

548
00:36:38,860 --> 00:36:41,300
That is the best thumbnail you could possibly make in the world.

549
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:52,360
And it's just, like, a clickbait, you know, like, crazy death trap or, like, a mega, mega, mega yacht or a mansion in Mississippi going, like, just really surprised by it.

550
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:57,660
And, yeah, I mean, theoretically, everybody should be doing that, right?

551
00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:03,960
Everybody should be making, like, the craziest thumbnail they could and then just, like, acting like their mind is literally being fucking blown by the thumbnail.

552
00:37:04,300 --> 00:37:08,160
And then that's kind of a weird world to live in where, like, it's all thumbnails look like that.

553
00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:09,820
And, yeah.

554
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:10,720
I don't know.

555
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:11,300
Are we getting old?

556
00:37:11,380 --> 00:37:13,340
I feel like we're just not making commentary on, like, how shitty.

557
00:37:13,620 --> 00:37:14,780
Should we talk about some positive stuff?

558
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:26,060
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because, like, even Mr. Beast is, like, has a controversial side now where people are like, oh, it's, like, exploitation content.

559
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:27,060
You're exploiting the poor.

560
00:37:27,180 --> 00:37:27,680
You're exploiting the blood.

561
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,400
And I think it's, like, well, that is technically true.

562
00:37:30,620 --> 00:37:32,900
Like, he's still technically helping people, though, right?

563
00:37:32,900 --> 00:37:36,820
It's, like, yeah, he's getting some personal benefit, but so are these people being helped.

564
00:37:37,060 --> 00:37:37,380
It's, like.

565
00:37:37,460 --> 00:37:37,800
Oh, yeah.

566
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:51,020
I mean, and even if not, like, there were always shows, like, Fear Factor or Survivor where, like, there were always kind of exploitation of, like, people's, like, emotions and things on the line that they either get or don't get.

567
00:37:51,220 --> 00:37:53,800
And, you know, Mr. Beast is a one-man production company.

568
00:37:53,860 --> 00:37:54,680
He's not, like, CBS.

569
00:37:54,940 --> 00:37:56,800
And he was able to kind of build this empire.

570
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:10,020
And so now he's getting all this flack when, you know, for all these much larger corporations, they're somehow not really being judged on the same level just because they don't feel like they're friends with the CEO of that corporate.

571
00:38:10,220 --> 00:38:11,900
But they feel like, oh, I see Mr. Beast all the time.

572
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:18,200
I feel like I know him enough to critique these things of him and, like, kind of speak to him in, like, a more candid way.

573
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:31,100
And it's, like, I guess that's helped him a lot with his growth because, you know, people watch him religiously but also kind of, I think, is biting him now where they're just really loose with, like, just saying shit to Mr. Beast now.

574
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:31,900
Yeah.

575
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:41,220
I think at some point he's going to have to step away from an on-camera role because, like, he's at the point where he does have an entire company underneath him and who's doing all this stuff.

576
00:38:41,340 --> 00:38:43,560
And it's, like, it doesn't actually need to be him.

577
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,980
It's not like he adds a ton of personality to his videos.

578
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,780
He's more just, like, hey, I'm the face and I'm explaining the rules and stuff.

579
00:38:49,860 --> 00:39:00,080
But, like, he could easily hire or even promote one of the existing people who are already on there upwards and more like a host or even, like, switching each of them up and seeing who does well.

580
00:39:00,740 --> 00:39:00,900
Yeah.

581
00:39:00,900 --> 00:39:12,860
But I'd be kind of surprised if he continues to do it because, like, I guess I'm trying to think, like, other than him, the vanity factor of him being able to be there.

582
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:16,700
Oh, did you ever watch his brother's channel?

583
00:39:16,900 --> 00:39:19,200
That kind of, like, was a mini version of him?

584
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:21,120
Oh, it's technically his older brother.

585
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:22,820
I've never seen his older brother.

586
00:39:22,940 --> 00:39:25,020
I didn't even know he had an older brother.

587
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:32,880
So, basically, he, like, set him up with his own channel and he was just doing, like, the almost exact same type of videos.

588
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,180
And even the crew was similar.

589
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,260
It was, like, Chandler's brother was part of his, like, cast.

590
00:39:38,260 --> 00:39:38,800
Holy shit.

591
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:40,960
It's like a multiverse kind of Mr. Beast.

592
00:39:41,260 --> 00:39:42,640
I mean, it was, like, the B team, right?

593
00:39:42,700 --> 00:39:45,140
You got, like, an A team, Mr. Beast, and then, like, B team.

594
00:39:45,660 --> 00:39:46,860
This is, like, the spinoff show.

595
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:47,200
Exactly.

596
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:48,540
For the people who really love the main show.

597
00:39:48,660 --> 00:39:50,420
It's like the Gen V of the boys kind of.

598
00:39:50,580 --> 00:39:51,460
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

599
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,100
It did well by, like, objective measures.

600
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,160
Like, I think he had a couple million subs.

601
00:39:57,240 --> 00:40:00,320
Each video was getting, like, a couple hundred thousand, maybe, like, low millions.

602
00:40:00,940 --> 00:40:06,100
But I think that, like, being overshadowed aspect caused him to just quit that thing entirely.

603
00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:12,180
So, even though, like, if any regular person reached that level of fame with their own videos, they'd be like, oh, this is awesome.

604
00:40:12,180 --> 00:40:14,840
But because his younger brother is Mr. Beast, he's like, oh, this sucks.

605
00:40:15,060 --> 00:40:15,700
Like, my life sucks.

606
00:40:15,780 --> 00:40:16,320
I can't do this.

607
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:17,100
Right.

608
00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:23,580
Yeah, I mean, it's, like, like, comparing yourself to somebody else.

609
00:40:24,220 --> 00:40:28,920
Like, even Mr. Beast, I think, like, suffers from his own success.

610
00:40:29,300 --> 00:40:37,720
I think there was at one point where, like, he measures his success based on, like, is his video, like, on, like, his past 10 videos average.

611
00:40:38,220 --> 00:40:41,620
Like, is this the higher than the average of his past 10 videos or something?

612
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:48,620
And I think there was one point where, like, his last 10 videos were, like, the highest, the best performing videos of all time.

613
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:59,080
So, like, in order for his next video to beat his average, he would have to be, like, it would have to be one of the, like, fastest videos to, like, 10 million views or something in history.

614
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:06,760
And so, you know, it's got to be, I mean, tying it back, like, Logan Paul kind of suffered from that as well because he daily vlogged, right?

615
00:41:06,820 --> 00:41:16,900
Like, he daily vlogged, every day had to be an insane day, which forces you to do, like, which forces you to find the craziest thing you could do at short notice, fly to countries.

616
00:41:16,900 --> 00:41:18,620
And, unfortunately, one of the countries he flew to is Japan.

617
00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:23,900
And, like, he was forced to, like, you know, he saw something outrageous and crazy.

618
00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:29,540
And then he was forced to outdo his yesterday self, who was, and that yesterday was forced to outdo the day before.

619
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:40,960
And, like, it just culminated into him just, like, being in this mindset of being open to filming a dead body and putting it on YouTube, which is, like, if you say the sentence out loud, obviously it's fucking preposterous.

620
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:48,920
Right, but, like, you know, Logan Paul isn't, he seems to be a normal human being, like, otherwise.

621
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:57,780
So, I think, actually, my controversial take is, like, I think many people, oh, sorry, I don't think everyone would do that if they were in Logan Paul's position.

622
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:06,040
But I think more people than you would think would maybe be pushed to do things that currently we think are outside of our comfort zones.

623
00:42:06,100 --> 00:42:17,620
But when you're in that mindset of, like, got to beat, got to keep setting records, got to keep a new PR every single day, I think you'd be surprised at what you'd be willing to do to kind of do that.

624
00:42:18,180 --> 00:42:29,660
Yeah, and in that same line, I think a lot of people, they love to virtue signal, they love that feeling, that dopamine, but they don't really take the time to feel any empathy for the actions of others.

625
00:42:30,060 --> 00:42:34,420
And, like you said, a lot of these actions are probably bad or, like.

626
00:42:34,780 --> 00:42:36,700
Oh, yeah, I don't support it, let's not get canceled.

627
00:42:36,860 --> 00:42:40,180
You don't support Logan Paul's decision, but, yeah.

628
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:45,780
Definitely detestable, but it's, like, I think no one, most people, anyway, are not, like, the villain of their story.

629
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,540
Like, you judge everyone else by their actions, but you judge yourself by your intentions.

630
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:50,000
Exactly.

631
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:57,840
So, it's, like, like you said, there is a path where, you know, in his shoes, you might have done the same things.

632
00:42:58,860 --> 00:43:03,660
Everyone wants to tell themselves that they would not have, but it's, like, a Stanford prison experiment.

633
00:43:03,660 --> 00:43:05,360
And, like, stuff like that.

634
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,720
I think that was kind of debunked, but, like, I think the original thing kind of stands.

635
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:10,180
Right.

636
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:12,220
The theory, like, kind of makes sense.

637
00:43:12,340 --> 00:43:18,360
It's, like, you know, once you're given this power and once it's easy to say no and, like, a lot of these systems in place.

638
00:43:18,580 --> 00:43:25,740
And even looking at, like, the cop and justice system in the U.S.

639
00:43:25,780 --> 00:43:29,180
It's, like, there's a lot of bad cops and they're, like, oh, you know, they're all rotten, blah, blah, blah.

640
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,600
And it's, like, well, if you were a cop and you're trying to go in the system and fix things, like, you'd probably get fired.

641
00:43:33,780 --> 00:43:37,820
Like, you have no idea how that system is set up and how it got to be the way it was.

642
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,920
It's, like, it's really easy to make a snap judgment without knowing any of it.

643
00:43:42,540 --> 00:43:42,660
Yeah.

644
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:44,900
But, yeah, I don't know.

645
00:43:45,780 --> 00:43:49,580
I mean, I guess, like, speaking on, trying to speak of more positive things.

646
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:50,520
Let's do it.

647
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:56,900
I feel like each of the positive things that I just thought about also have, like, a slight negative twist depending on who you are.

648
00:43:57,020 --> 00:43:58,680
But, like, I guess that's everything these days.

649
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,040
So, like, just kind of bring it back to more, like, AI stuff.

650
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:12,060
And, like, I think that people who are in a lot of the creative fields are going to get wrecked, like, horribly, horribly wrecked in the next couple of years.

651
00:44:12,460 --> 00:44:13,360
Wait, how is this positive?

652
00:44:14,700 --> 00:44:18,120
Well, so the positive side, I led with the negative.

653
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:23,720
The positive side is it's going to be a lot easier for people to be entrepreneurial.

654
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:36,860
So I think that a lot of these AI-assisted tools will allow people to essentially be, like, not one man, but, like, you know, a really small team and make a fairly robust product that's desired by a lot of people.

655
00:44:36,860 --> 00:44:39,940
So, like, even, like, making, like, a small indie game.

656
00:44:40,220 --> 00:44:47,320
Before, you would need, like, artists and music composers and graphic designers and UI people and programmers and everything.

657
00:44:47,460 --> 00:44:55,420
And now you could, it'll still take a really, really long time, but feasibly you could do that with one person in, like, a fraction of the time.

658
00:44:55,740 --> 00:44:57,080
Or maybe you want to write a book.

659
00:44:57,240 --> 00:44:58,500
You want to make a picture book or something.

660
00:44:58,660 --> 00:45:03,820
Like, you can even get it to generate the script, to generate the pictures and maybe some fine-tuning.

661
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:15,740
And I think that it's, like, a lot of these jobs will still exist, probably at reduced rates, but then it'll free them up to do other, potentially more lucrative things.

662
00:45:16,420 --> 00:45:17,140
I don't know, it's hard to say.

663
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:27,000
I guess it's, like, you know, there's kind of two paths the world can go down, or one leads to, like, a Star Trek utopia, unlimited energy.

664
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,600
We become a federation and go colonize the stars.

665
00:45:30,980 --> 00:45:38,320
And the other one is more like a Star Wars-type fascist regime where, you know, things don't go as well.

666
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:52,160
But, I don't know, I think with a lot of the technology advancing the way it is, and that with, like, the fusion energy and just renewables getting a lot of traction, you know, I feel like...

667
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,280
I think the positive is the consumer wins, right?

668
00:45:55,300 --> 00:46:04,040
The consumer will now win way more because it'll be easier to edit videos to the high bar of, like, your favorite YouTubers with AI assistants.

669
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:12,600
You don't need, like, their 10-person production team or, like, their world-class editor because an AI can just, like, learn their editing style and then chop up your video for you.

670
00:46:13,140 --> 00:46:22,400
I think it'll be easier to, like, come up with, like, script ideas with, like, ChatGPT, especially if you, like, fine-tune it based upon, like, your style and your twist.

671
00:46:23,060 --> 00:46:27,200
And, yeah, I think the floor is just going to be, like...

672
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:27,720
A lot higher.

673
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:28,880
Yeah, a lot higher.

674
00:46:29,220 --> 00:46:34,320
And that's going to be good because, you know, it's just going to increase competition.

675
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,080
They'll probably just, like...

676
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:37,900
Yeah.

677
00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:39,320
And for startups, too.

678
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:52,400
Like, I feel like small, really small startup teams can now tackle pretty big, like, pretty big pain points without needing, you know, like, without even needing an office.

679
00:46:52,400 --> 00:47:07,040
You could do it fully remote, you could just build an MVP, raise some money, and then basically do the work of, like, what would previously would take, like, 10x the size of your team and now do it in a comparable amount of time.

680
00:47:07,100 --> 00:47:09,940
And I think that's, like, really scary for incumbents.

681
00:47:10,100 --> 00:47:24,980
You know, anytime I talk to, like, any public company or, like, I'm always pretty disappointed with, like, these larger companies because they move, like, at, you know, and it's kind of memed on, like, oh, startups move fast and big companies move slow.

682
00:47:25,140 --> 00:47:34,740
But, like, they actually move so ridiculously slow and they have so much bureaucracy that it's so much more exciting to work on a small startup.

683
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:42,000
And I think that's, like, it used to be kind of ridiculous to think that a small startup could, like, beat a larger, much better funded company.

684
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:54,400
But just by virtue of being smaller and being, like, able to, like, iterate way fast, like, having iterative cycles, like, potentially 100x faster or maybe 1,000x faster, like, that is not something that you want to look over.

685
00:47:54,900 --> 00:47:57,460
And AI obviously just accelerates that even more.

686
00:47:58,420 --> 00:47:58,600
Yeah.

687
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,160
And I think you've captured two of the biggest points.

688
00:48:01,540 --> 00:48:03,220
And one is, like, the consumer wins.

689
00:48:03,460 --> 00:48:10,340
So, you know, in the case of Jenny AI, if you're a graduate student, you're in academia, you can write your papers much more effectively.

690
00:48:11,240 --> 00:48:21,380
Or even, like, in your day-to-day life, like, I actually go to ChatGPT now a lot more often than Google sometimes because, like, say I want to make, like, recipes for something.

691
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:23,920
Because SEO is completely fucked on Google.

692
00:48:24,420 --> 00:48:25,740
All the results you get are trash.

693
00:48:25,980 --> 00:48:28,460
And they're, like, you don't even find the information that you want.

694
00:48:28,460 --> 00:48:30,340
And now they're trying to monetize even more heavily.

695
00:48:30,940 --> 00:48:35,180
And it's, like, you can get two, three, maybe four ads before, like, a legitimate search result.

696
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:37,060
And it's...

697
00:48:37,060 --> 00:48:37,680
It's disgusting.

698
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:38,520
It's disgusting.

699
00:48:38,820 --> 00:48:39,760
You've seen my latest tweet.

700
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:40,640
It's actually gross.

701
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:45,960
Like, there are competitors bidding on Jenny AI.

702
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,900
They'll pay for, like, a sponsored post.

703
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:52,300
And they'll make their link just look like Jenny.

704
00:48:52,300 --> 00:48:56,480
Their link just says Jenny AI, like, AI writing assistance.

705
00:48:56,720 --> 00:48:58,180
But their site is just not Jenny.

706
00:48:58,460 --> 00:49:04,480
And I know for a fact that, like, you know, there are people just clicking on it thinking it's Jenny, going to them, subscribing.

707
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:06,640
And it's, like, I've...

708
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,700
We've reported that ad so many times because it's against their terms of service.

709
00:49:09,700 --> 00:49:12,740
But it's just not being, like, taken seriously.

710
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,420
And I just feel bad because this is just one anecdotal case.

711
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,040
I'm sure this is happening, like, all the time.

712
00:49:18,340 --> 00:49:20,280
Of, like, these sponsored posts are just...

713
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:22,160
They're not really what the user wants.

714
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:24,560
In this case, it's literally not what they wanted.

715
00:49:24,620 --> 00:49:25,760
They typed Jenny AI.

716
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:26,660
They wanted Jenny.

717
00:49:26,740 --> 00:49:28,260
And they get taken to somewhere else.

718
00:49:29,380 --> 00:49:31,980
And, you know, I'm sure this is happening, like, to some degree.

719
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:33,080
Maybe even more severe.

720
00:49:33,980 --> 00:49:37,480
Like, at least this tool is also an education, an ed tech tool.

721
00:49:37,900 --> 00:49:45,840
But there are probably some cases where, like, for example, my buddy, he runs something called Excel Formula Bot, which is, like, an AI that helps you with Excel.

722
00:49:46,340 --> 00:49:49,360
But Timu is bidding on it because it has Formula Bot in it.

723
00:49:49,380 --> 00:49:51,040
So they're selling, like, breast milk formula.

724
00:49:51,720 --> 00:49:55,220
And they're, like, it's, like, formula, like, selling.

725
00:49:55,340 --> 00:49:56,000
That's the sponsored post.

726
00:49:56,020 --> 00:49:58,700
So imagine, like, you hear about Excel Formula Bot.

727
00:49:58,760 --> 00:49:59,520
Maybe you don't know much about it.

728
00:49:59,540 --> 00:50:00,500
You click the Timu link.

729
00:50:01,140 --> 00:50:04,300
And now you're, as a user, you're just, like, what a terrible experience.

730
00:50:04,380 --> 00:50:05,600
You're just, like, super confused.

731
00:50:06,100 --> 00:50:08,420
You're now wondering whether you need to buy this baby formula or not.

732
00:50:08,460 --> 00:50:09,500
Is this what your friend was talking about?

733
00:50:09,540 --> 00:50:10,120
Probably not.

734
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:11,160
You have to go back.

735
00:50:11,220 --> 00:50:12,120
You wasted some time.

736
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:13,820
And it's just terrible.

737
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:14,740
So, yeah.

738
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:15,220
Sorry.

739
00:50:15,300 --> 00:50:15,440
Continue.

740
00:50:15,500 --> 00:50:16,200
I don't want to interrupt you.

741
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:16,480
Continue.

742
00:50:16,620 --> 00:50:18,880
But, like, it's fucked right now with Google.

743
00:50:19,240 --> 00:50:21,600
No, I mean, you completely hit the nail on the head.

744
00:50:21,860 --> 00:50:26,440
And I think it's, like, if you know someone within the company, they might be able to help

745
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:26,800
you out.

746
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:29,620
But going through the normal support channels, like, there's no way.

747
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:29,900
Yeah.

748
00:50:29,900 --> 00:50:30,580
Like, good luck.

749
00:50:31,260 --> 00:50:37,820
Which is funny because, like, one time I had a Twitter handle hacked.

750
00:50:38,500 --> 00:50:40,920
And, you know, I tried going through all these normal support measures.

751
00:50:41,100 --> 00:50:43,680
And then I literally just contacted my friend who worked at Twitter.

752
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:45,040
I'm, like, dude, can you help me out?

753
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:45,620
Yeah.

754
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:47,160
And, like, I got the account back immediately.

755
00:50:47,780 --> 00:50:50,380
And it's just, like, I don't know.

756
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:50,800
It's.

757
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:52,260
It's a nepotism, man.

758
00:50:52,460 --> 00:50:52,640
It's.

759
00:50:52,700 --> 00:50:54,100
The world runs on that kind of, man.

760
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:54,500
It does.

761
00:50:54,660 --> 00:50:55,020
It does.

762
00:50:55,060 --> 00:50:55,640
It actually does.

763
00:50:56,100 --> 00:50:59,220
Dude, tying back to, like, what we were saying earlier about when you're really poor or

764
00:50:59,220 --> 00:51:00,440
really rich, it's just about who you know.

765
00:51:00,720 --> 00:51:00,920
Yep.

766
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:05,740
You know, back in the day, the most important thing, before ChatGPT, there was GPT-3.

767
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:12,680
And GPT-3 was, like, possibly one of the most, like, the most powerful tech you could get.

768
00:51:13,020 --> 00:51:15,200
But you could only get it if you knew someone at OpenAI.

769
00:51:16,020 --> 00:51:23,360
And so, you know, we were pretty, we were working on this tech.

770
00:51:23,420 --> 00:51:24,760
We were working in this field for so long.

771
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:29,600
And we just couldn't get it until I called one of my friends who was connected with somebody

772
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:31,000
in OpenAI, and that got us GPT-3.

773
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:36,520
And I think without hyperbole, just that one phone call was probably worth, like, a million

774
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:36,880
dollars.

775
00:51:37,060 --> 00:51:39,860
Like, just getting GPT-3 was worth a million dollars.

776
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:43,420
And there's no, like, there's no form you could fill out.

777
00:51:43,540 --> 00:51:46,140
There's no, like, way you could kind of email the right person.

778
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:46,840
Well, maybe there is.

779
00:51:46,900 --> 00:51:51,740
But, like, it would probably be akin to, like, nepotism where you'd have to email them, impress

780
00:51:51,740 --> 00:51:54,900
them, become their friend, and then have them give you access.

781
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,400
So, yeah, it's really, like, eye-opening.

782
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:00,740
I'm sure you have a lot of stories about it as well.

783
00:52:00,780 --> 00:52:03,440
But, like, a lot of it is just who you know.

784
00:52:03,900 --> 00:52:07,540
Like, can you network effectively to get to the right person, to the decision maker?

785
00:52:08,020 --> 00:52:10,120
And then player cards right there.

786
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:17,860
And then that will unlock, like, insane amounts of value, opportunity, like, lucrative partnerships.

787
00:52:19,900 --> 00:52:22,040
And that's just how the world kind of works.

788
00:52:22,420 --> 00:52:23,780
And I don't know how I feel about that.

789
00:52:23,860 --> 00:52:24,360
It's not good.

790
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:25,140
It's definitely not good.

791
00:52:25,500 --> 00:52:25,500
But.

792
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,240
So, again, this could be, like, silver lining.

793
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:30,640
It depends on who your audience is.

794
00:52:30,740 --> 00:52:34,080
If you're someone who's really good at networking, who's really social, outgoing, like, this is

795
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:34,740
great news for you.

796
00:52:34,780 --> 00:52:35,500
You're like, oh, awesome.

797
00:52:35,740 --> 00:52:42,040
Like, and what's hilarious is that some research came out showing that, like, how much your boss

798
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:47,200
likes you is more important, like, whoever your immediate manager is, is more important

799
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:49,080
than, like, your actual level of work done.

800
00:52:49,780 --> 00:52:53,540
And so, like, as a manager, like, you're still a human being.

801
00:52:53,900 --> 00:52:54,540
Like, you have emotions.

802
00:52:54,740 --> 00:52:56,300
You have a connection with people.

803
00:52:56,680 --> 00:53:02,780
And so, like, obviously, if one of your people that you manage you like on a personal level,

804
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:04,040
you're going to be more lenient with them.

805
00:53:04,100 --> 00:53:07,520
Just similar to, like, one of your friends, right?

806
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:11,680
If someone commits an egregious act, if that person is your friend, you're going to be much

807
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:14,740
more lenient with them than if it's, like, some stranger or you don't know your boss.

808
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:15,400
I don't know that guy.

809
00:53:15,460 --> 00:53:15,960
Screw that guy.

810
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:17,420
But, like, oh, Ken.

811
00:53:17,580 --> 00:53:18,300
Like, Ken's my friend.

812
00:53:18,380 --> 00:53:19,380
Like, yeah, I'm going to help out Ken.

813
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:19,600
Yeah.

814
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:21,040
Yeah.

815
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:23,960
I mean, it's just human nature.

816
00:53:24,180 --> 00:53:24,560
I agree.

817
00:53:24,660 --> 00:53:25,860
I mean, I feel like that's your point, right?

818
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:26,840
It's, like, it's just human nature.

819
00:53:26,900 --> 00:53:28,020
We can't really fix it.

820
00:53:29,340 --> 00:53:30,340
And I guess that's true.

821
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:35,020
There are ways, like, once you kind of figure that out, there are ways to kind of capitalize

822
00:53:35,020 --> 00:53:35,500
on it.

823
00:53:35,740 --> 00:53:39,000
Like, for example, I do run, like, a marketing agency on the side.

824
00:53:39,500 --> 00:53:44,460
And you could choose to either just send them one monthly update where it just is epic.

825
00:53:44,460 --> 00:53:47,560
And you're, like, okay, we grew your social media account by this much.

826
00:53:47,580 --> 00:53:48,480
And you have this many followers.

827
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:49,420
And, like, that feels nice.

828
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:50,560
It feels very professional.

829
00:53:51,100 --> 00:53:55,560
But what actually ends up working way better is you actually message them, like, multiple

830
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:56,100
times a week.

831
00:53:56,240 --> 00:53:59,560
Like, every time you have one video that's, like, popping off or doing well, you send them

832
00:53:59,560 --> 00:53:59,920
an update.

833
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:02,520
And then, like, it becomes more of, like, a friendly nature.

834
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:07,320
And you find that, like, the clients that actually renew, they renew much more often when

835
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,920
you have more of that, like, friendly cadence of, like, you're constantly talking to them.

836
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:14,560
And you're constantly, like, they see you as a friend now because you're being, like, casual

837
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:15,020
with them.

838
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,040
And you're showing them how often you're working on it versus, like, more of a

839
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:22,940
sturdy, like, here's our pitch deck of, like, why the last 30 days was so successful.

840
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:30,240
And so, yeah, I mean, if that is just our human nature and you do kind of want to play

841
00:54:30,240 --> 00:54:35,440
on, like, if networking is really that important, then it probably is good to, like, level up

842
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:39,200
that skill tree that you have because there are actually actionable things you could do

843
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:42,700
with that skill tree that, like, will make your life a lot easier.

844
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:49,160
Like, even doing the same amount of work, it will make it because in those both of those cases, I did

845
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:49,940
the same amount of work.

846
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,520
It's just, like, like, did when did I send them the message of, like, what I did?

847
00:54:53,580 --> 00:54:54,860
It's, like, takes an extra 10 seconds, right?

848
00:54:54,860 --> 00:54:58,880
So it might actually take longer to make the professional looking pitch deck than to actually

849
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:00,140
just shoot them a message every time.

850
00:55:00,260 --> 00:55:05,760
So, yeah, it's just interesting to think about, like, when you look at that lens of, yeah,

851
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:09,360
it's pretty, I don't know if I communicate that correctly, but yeah.

852
00:55:10,100 --> 00:55:14,300
Yeah, I mean, like what you said, it's not necessarily the most effort or the most pristine

853
00:55:14,300 --> 00:55:15,600
looking thing that gets ahead.

854
00:55:15,720 --> 00:55:17,580
It's more about, like, having a more of a human touch.

855
00:55:18,460 --> 00:55:22,300
And then, like, regardless if you're starting your own company or working in the workplace,

856
00:55:22,620 --> 00:55:26,820
like, the people I see who move up the fastest, it's purely nepotism.

857
00:55:27,060 --> 00:55:32,420
It's, like, the person who gets hired in as a VP, he brings in all his underlings from

858
00:55:32,420 --> 00:55:36,260
the previous company, and they all get, like, a title bump, and they all move up with him.

859
00:55:36,860 --> 00:55:44,440
And, like, even, it's, like, effectively attaching yourself to, like, the local king or queen.

860
00:55:44,620 --> 00:55:48,500
So it's, like, almost like a mob-esque mob or fiefdom.

861
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:49,880
Like a mafia.

862
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:50,640
Exactly.

863
00:55:50,900 --> 00:55:52,820
It's essentially like a pyramid, right?

864
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:56,020
There's a dude at a pyramid, but there's multiple pyramids within each company.

865
00:55:56,460 --> 00:56:01,240
So say a company has a bunch of these pyramids and mafias, right, and you attach yourself

866
00:56:01,240 --> 00:56:02,240
to the right mob boss.

867
00:56:02,820 --> 00:56:05,300
And, you know, like, you scratch their back, they're going to scratch yours, they're going

868
00:56:05,300 --> 00:56:10,220
to bring you along with them to the next, I guess, city would be, like, the next company.

869
00:56:11,100 --> 00:56:15,140
And that's literally the people who move up the fastest in corporate.

870
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:18,840
And it's, like, the brown-nosers, the people who, like, have someone pulling for them.

871
00:56:18,980 --> 00:56:22,880
Because, like, when it comes to performance review time or getting a promotion, it's literally,

872
00:56:23,020 --> 00:56:25,780
like, well, how much is your manager or your VP willing to fight for you?

873
00:56:25,860 --> 00:56:27,260
Because there's a limited number of promotions.

874
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:30,240
And so it's, like, there's all of them.

875
00:56:30,260 --> 00:56:31,700
It's probably a bunch of you who did good work.

876
00:56:31,780 --> 00:56:32,400
That's, like, the bar.

877
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:34,820
But then the next step is, like, well, do they know your name?

878
00:56:34,820 --> 00:56:36,580
Like, how visible are your projects?

879
00:56:36,780 --> 00:56:37,920
Like, people like you?

880
00:56:39,060 --> 00:56:44,840
And an undercurrent of, like, yeah, it's, like, is this the right profile of person we

881
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:45,460
want moving up?

882
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:46,480
Do you want them to join us?

883
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:52,620
Which, again, could be positive or negative, depending on how, what your personality is

884
00:56:52,620 --> 00:56:52,820
like.

885
00:56:53,660 --> 00:56:59,340
And it's just because the people, I'll say this, like, one, another example, like, from

886
00:56:59,340 --> 00:57:02,000
my side is, like, VCs will constantly email me.

887
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:06,140
They'll be, like, you know, even if you're not raising right now, we usually know a company,

888
00:57:06,140 --> 00:57:09,380
like, for six months or a year before we actually invest in them.

889
00:57:09,860 --> 00:57:13,140
I'm, like, dude, what, like, are you doing your job correctly?

890
00:57:13,260 --> 00:57:18,880
Like, you have, like, isn't, that is, like, that is kind of nepotism of, like, if you only

891
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:23,360
invest in people that you have, like, personal relationships that you've built with, like,

892
00:57:23,420 --> 00:57:27,960
isn't the point of a VC you can evaluate a company and see, okay, this is, you know, they

893
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:30,940
have really good metrics, I believe in this founder, I'm willing to take this bet, and

894
00:57:30,940 --> 00:57:33,920
I'm going to allocate capital to this team.

895
00:57:34,740 --> 00:57:40,480
But, you know, it's almost like a threat to me, like, you know, hey, we only invest in

896
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:44,140
people that, and they're kind of, like, forcing me to get on these calls with them to, like,

897
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:46,760
like, for them to kind of understand my soul.

898
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:48,720
Like, it's not even, like, a real pitch, right?

899
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:52,220
It's just, like, I tell them about kind of, like, my philosophy and, like, my life.

900
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:56,020
You know, I mean, I have a lot of stories where, like, you go to VC meetings, and it feels

901
00:57:56,020 --> 00:58:02,020
like they'll ask you really kind of unorthodox questions, and, you know, they'll basically

902
00:58:02,020 --> 00:58:06,160
evaluate you, like, things that really shouldn't matter for a startup.

903
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:07,300
Or maybe it does matter.

904
00:58:07,380 --> 00:58:10,820
Like, maybe it sounds kind of naive because I'm not a VC.

905
00:58:10,980 --> 00:58:15,500
Maybe actually, like, they've discovered some secret sauce of, like, you know, they need

906
00:58:15,500 --> 00:58:20,260
to have some trauma in their childhood, and they need to, like, I really don't believe in

907
00:58:20,260 --> 00:58:24,540
that, I feel like just you want to find the best founders, the best builders that have

908
00:58:24,540 --> 00:58:28,460
traction, that understand some secret about the market, and they have some mode, and then

909
00:58:28,460 --> 00:58:31,380
just, like, give them money to let them, like, scale, which obviously is, like, pretty

910
00:58:31,380 --> 00:58:39,380
reductive, but I definitely don't like the other side of the coin, which is you don't,

911
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:43,800
you kind of factor that in, but instead, it's all about who do you know, right?

912
00:58:43,860 --> 00:58:49,140
Like, often VCs invest in people that, like, either just have, like, a big name, like,

913
00:58:49,140 --> 00:58:53,620
oh, he was the something, something, chief something at Spotify, you know, oh, he has

914
00:58:53,620 --> 00:58:59,460
to be so good, or, you know, like, he went to Y Combinator, like, they have to be, right?

915
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:06,200
Like, I have friends who, who basically don't have a product, they're pre-product, pre-revenue,

916
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:11,400
and they pretty much get the same valuation as us, and we have grown to 2 million users,

917
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:17,740
we grow, like, 20% month over month, we have, like, 190,000 MRR, you know, like, it's,

918
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:23,780
it's definitely past, like, a pre-product startup, you know, obviously, we kind of get the same

919
00:59:23,780 --> 00:59:28,000
valuation because, you know, he went to Stanford, he dropped that, or he graduated from Stanford,

920
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:34,080
he's in the Bay, he knows all these VCs, he's been to their offices, like, you know, and I love

921
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:37,840
this guy, by the way, I don't want to talk shit, like, this guy's a really great, I applaud him for

922
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:44,040
actually taking advantage of, like, these things that, that are only available to him, but just,

923
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:50,320
like, on a, on a high level, it, it, it just feels not nice, it just feels like something's wrong,

924
00:59:50,980 --> 00:59:56,340
and, yeah, to your point, like, that's the negative side of it, I just, I spoke of the positive side

925
00:59:56,340 --> 00:59:59,640
of, like, you know, once you understand it, there are things you could do, actual things you do to

926
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:05,140
change, like, how you kind of conduct yourself, which will put you a leg up, but the negative sides

927
01:00:05,140 --> 01:00:10,780
is, like, you will always kind of, if you're not really heavily, if you're not in the inner circle,

928
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:14,820
if you're not in the right mafia, if you're not in the right mob, your life will just be way harder,

929
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:18,700
and maybe that's something you just have to accept, but that's the truth, yeah.

930
01:00:19,060 --> 01:00:23,500
Yeah, it's, like, definitely not even playing field, and, like, that cookie-cutter mold that

931
01:00:23,500 --> 01:00:28,900
you talked about, when I was a lot younger and still entertained dreams of, like, becoming a tech

932
01:00:28,900 --> 01:00:31,940
billionaire, it's, like, I saw that all the time, it's, like, well, that dude went to Stanford,

933
01:00:31,940 --> 01:00:35,800
you know, he got the Facebook job, he got into YC, and then, you know, gets the tech startup,

934
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:40,220
that's, like, four-step stage plan. It's just, like, where do I send the check, right, it's, like,

935
01:00:40,220 --> 01:00:46,340
who do I wire to? And it's kind of funny, because that was actually my plan before, I was, like, oh,

936
01:00:46,460 --> 01:00:50,820
you know, I'll just go get a Stanford MBA, you know, after Netflix, I'll go to YC, and then after

937
01:00:50,820 --> 01:00:55,760
YC, I'll do something, but then, you know, I... Why? Why did you not fulfill that? We could have been

938
01:00:55,760 --> 01:01:01,320
working, basically having the same day-to-day. What happened? I mean, I took my life a different

939
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:09,900
direction. I think there's a death in the family, had kids, kind of, you know, re-evaluated,

940
01:01:10,300 --> 01:01:14,780
which you can find out all about in my new book coming out. Oh, plug it, dude. When's it coming

941
01:01:14,780 --> 01:01:21,860
out? Next March. But, yeah, basically, it's mostly just all the stuff I've talked about already in

942
01:01:21,860 --> 01:01:28,000
TikTok, but, like, more detailed. And for anyone who wants to write a book, don't, unless you really

943
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:34,600
love writing, it's, like, extremely not worth it in terms of monetary rewards, unless you're

944
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:38,280
already famous, like, Prince Harry or someone, right? I think he got an advance of, like, 8 million.

945
01:01:38,340 --> 01:01:41,120
Unless you're already famous, like, Frank New. It's going to flap the shelves.

946
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:44,160
I'd say I'm, like, a niche micro-celebrity.

947
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:50,980
Dude, but you're niche in, like, the cool circles, like, the tech circles, like, the... Dude, if I...

948
01:01:50,980 --> 01:01:56,160
I was gonna... I told my friends, I was, like, oh, I'm gonna be on this, like, podcast. If I show any

949
01:01:56,160 --> 01:02:02,640
Asian dude, age, like, 25 to 35, your face, they'll be, like, oh, Frank New. Or they'll be, like,

950
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:06,700
I have seen this dude's face before. I, like, I've seen this dude before. So, like, you've definitely

951
01:02:06,700 --> 01:02:12,140
penetrated, like, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're totally right. Like, whenever people...

952
01:02:12,140 --> 01:02:16,080
People who know my name, that actually approach me in public, guaranteed to be Asian.

953
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:16,860
Yeah.

954
01:02:16,860 --> 01:02:19,040
In, like, 20s to early 30s range.

955
01:02:19,260 --> 01:02:19,600
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

956
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:23,720
And I'm surprisingly popular in Singapore, which...

957
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:24,180
Well, hell yeah.

958
01:02:24,500 --> 01:02:29,320
...is kind of interesting, I guess, because I have a friend from a previous workplace, her

959
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:34,720
husband... Well, they're both Singaporean, and then her husband is, like, quite connected

960
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:40,380
with, like, Singaporean politics and, like, tech sphere, and, like, he got this Koya

961
01:02:40,380 --> 01:02:46,000
fund around a tech startup and sold them a bunch of stuff, and he's, like, oh, yeah, a

962
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:50,340
lot of my friends are, like, surprised that I know you through my wife. I'm, like, oh, cool.

963
01:02:52,240 --> 01:03:00,000
But at the same time, I think it's, like, I don't know. I would... If I could do it all

964
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:05,440
over again, I'm not sure I would still start a social media account, because I think that,

965
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:05,740
like... Really?

966
01:03:06,380 --> 01:03:08,620
I think it's bad for your mental health. Like, I don't...

967
01:03:08,620 --> 01:03:13,500
I don't think people are meant to, like, interact with so many people. Like, I think we're just

968
01:03:13,500 --> 01:03:20,560
not built for it. Like, every single content creator I've talked to... So I did... When

969
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:24,880
I first started the podcast, I really had no idea what direction to take it, and then I

970
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:30,380
thought I would model it off of, like, H3's podcast, where they just interview other content

971
01:03:30,380 --> 01:03:33,260
creators. I'm like, oh, that makes sense. You talk to other people with followings, they'll

972
01:03:33,260 --> 01:03:37,760
watch, right? And, like, the common theme of discussions, like, every single person I've

973
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:41,440
talked to, like, 100%, they're all like, oh, yeah. Like, it takes a toll on your mental

974
01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:46,040
health. And, like, people have different ways of coping with it. For me, my way of coping

975
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:51,260
is that, like, I don't care that much anyway already. So it's, like, that's, I guess, just

976
01:03:51,260 --> 01:03:54,680
normal. But then other people, they, like, they say they have to, like, adopt a persona.

977
01:03:55,260 --> 01:04:00,640
Some people, like, actually hire people to, like, filter out comments for them. I don't

978
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:00,740
know.

979
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:02,920
It sounds ridiculous, but I think that's really smart.

980
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:08,320
It is smart. I mean, if I cared more, I would do that. Well, no, I'm too cheap to do that.

981
01:04:08,420 --> 01:04:14,240
But, like, if I, if this is my full-time thing, I would do that, too. But, yeah, I don't know.

982
01:04:14,300 --> 01:04:17,200
I think that, like, fame is definitely overrated once.

983
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:23,700
But it's so, it's so, like, it's overrated. I have a couple comments here. One, it's

984
01:04:23,700 --> 01:04:29,180
overrated. But it's still, it's, like, the aftertaste is still a little sweet, you

985
01:04:29,180 --> 01:04:32,160
know? Like, there must be a reason you keep uploading, right? I mean, it's the

986
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:36,780
reason I keep tweeting. Like, I want to act like I'm above it. I want to act like, yeah,

987
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:41,860
I just post my startup updates, you know? It's for me. But I do get a, I do get that

988
01:04:41,860 --> 01:04:47,260
dopamine when someone says, like, wow, like, your journey's so crazy. You're, like, I

989
01:04:47,260 --> 01:04:53,720
learn so much from this. And, yeah. And I will say I empathize with, like, obviously

990
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:59,460
I'm on a completely different level scale as you. But, you know, I can get 20

991
01:04:59,460 --> 01:05:03,660
positive comments. But if I get one negative comment, it's just, like, in our

992
01:05:03,660 --> 01:05:08,180
nature, in my nature, like, as a founder, right, you're, like, you always want to

993
01:05:08,180 --> 01:05:11,440
prove people wrong. Like, I'll get a, I'll get really nice comments. And then one

994
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:16,140
person will be, like, your SEO blogs suck or something. Like, something really just,

995
01:05:16,140 --> 01:05:20,600
like, this guy, clearly, this guy has, this guy, you know, probably didn't even

996
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:25,220
think too much about it. But, you know, I do look at my SEO blogs after. I'm like,

997
01:05:25,260 --> 01:05:29,000
yeah, this isn't, like, the degree of excellence that, you know, I've set for

998
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:34,140
myself. And, like, I go and I do, I fix these blogs or I fix these, you know,

999
01:05:34,180 --> 01:05:38,440
articles. The reason I come on, like, yeah, it's bad. It's definitely not great for

1000
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:42,760
your mental health for, like, hundreds of thousands of people to kind of have control,

1001
01:05:42,900 --> 01:05:48,320
have some lever of control over you, at least for me. I don't know, I don't know how much

1002
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:53,960
control they have over you. And the last thing is, like, I do think that every job, you'll

1003
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:57,580
have some toll on your mental health. Like, I bet if we were, like, handing out free samples

1004
01:05:57,580 --> 01:06:01,960
to the Costco, we'd probably have some, like, it would take a mental toll on us, too, of, like,

1005
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:08,340
we're just a glorified, like, you know, just giving out samples. We're just, like, a small

1006
01:06:08,340 --> 01:06:13,880
cog in Costco's, like, grand plan of selling more rotisserie chicken. Like, imagine going home and,

1007
01:06:13,980 --> 01:06:18,040
like, you can't feel, I mean, I don't know, I've never done it before. I've worked at Chipotle

1008
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:23,820
before. And that was also not great when I was just asking, like, you know, mild, medium,

1009
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:28,880
hot, corn, guacamole, guacas extra, is that okay? Like, that was, like, my, I would say that

1010
01:06:28,880 --> 01:06:33,980
a thousand times a day, you know, and, like, that was definitely, like, not great either. So,

1011
01:06:34,460 --> 01:06:39,800
I think we do kind of choose our own battles and, yeah. Yeah, you're totally right. It's, like,

1012
01:06:39,900 --> 01:06:45,200
there are clearly still benefits, like, getting that book out now, even though, I don't know,

1013
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:49,340
I feel like I framed a lot of my life in, like, trying to make a lot of money. And in some ways,

1014
01:06:49,340 --> 01:06:55,380
I still evaluate a lot of my decisions in terms of, like, that, even though I don't have to anymore,

1015
01:06:55,980 --> 01:07:01,620
which I guess is a habit I should try to break out of. But it's, like, speaking on, like, the book

1016
01:07:01,620 --> 01:07:07,460
deal thing, it's, like, such a small amount of money. It's, like, I don't know, I guess for a lot

1017
01:07:07,460 --> 01:07:13,480
of writers, it seems like a lot of people aspire to be writers. And then it's, like, for me, I never

1018
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:18,320
really thought I would do that. But again, I guess it's, like, you said, it's, like, because you

1019
01:07:18,320 --> 01:07:22,080
already have the following, then you get the opportunity. So, like, I also invested a couple

1020
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:27,640
startups, again, because of the following. But I don't know, it's, it's strange, though, because I,

1021
01:07:28,020 --> 01:07:33,580
it sounds like you might be similar in the sense that, like, you're more logical minded. You talked

1022
01:07:33,580 --> 01:07:37,820
about the skill tree thing earlier. And a lot of these, you know, we've been talking a lot of these

1023
01:07:37,820 --> 01:07:43,640
things in somewhat negative light in terms of, like, the social connections. But, like, my wife loves

1024
01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:48,020
all that stuff. And she's great at it. Like, she's great at networking and politicking. And, like, she loves

1025
01:07:48,020 --> 01:07:53,480
hanging out with people. And I'm, like, man, I just want to, like, stay home. And I hate that shit. I hate

1026
01:07:53,480 --> 01:08:04,000
that shit so much. Like, I, when I go to these startup networking events, I literally am so, like, I just feel

1027
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:08,600
out of place. I would rather just be building something cool. But, like, as you said, it's just,

1028
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:12,600
like, an acquired skill you have to kind of get better at, especially if you're running a startup.

1029
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:22,160
And, yeah, it's unfortunate. But, yeah, I guess we are similar in that, in that regard. And, dude,

1030
01:08:22,220 --> 01:08:27,500
I'm glad, I'm excited to read your book. I do think, like, it would have been cool. Like, is there any part

1031
01:08:27,500 --> 01:08:33,840
of you that, like, wants to, like, wants to make something kind of crazy? Like, make a crazy startup?

1032
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:39,160
Or is that just, like, fully kind of, like, I think part of me still is. Just because it's something that

1033
01:08:39,160 --> 01:08:44,640
I haven't been able to do. Like, I made a startup before and it failed. And I'm no longer, like,

1034
01:08:44,660 --> 01:08:47,700
the two friends I convinced to quit their jobs are, I'm no longer friends with them.

1035
01:08:48,380 --> 01:08:55,600
And also, I don't know, it just feels like, I think that humans need some sort of goal to work towards.

1036
01:08:56,140 --> 01:09:02,160
And if you don't have one, you sort of languish and just wither away. And for social media, like,

1037
01:09:02,340 --> 01:09:06,760
my original goal when I started was just to be my wife, which I did. And then it was, like, okay,

1038
01:09:06,820 --> 01:09:08,240
now I have to get this blue checkmark. That's so funny.

1039
01:09:08,940 --> 01:09:13,760
Yeah. And then, like, I did all these media interviews because I'm, like, okay, I need these

1040
01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:18,260
articles so I can get this stupid checkmark. And then I got that. I'm, like, okay, now what?

1041
01:09:18,380 --> 01:09:24,880
Like, try to get a million followers, I guess. But it's, like, I guess getting followers doesn't even

1042
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:30,680
really mean anything because of how the algorithm works. It's, like, your followings doesn't really

1043
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:38,380
matter. It doesn't really at all. Yeah. It's, like, it doesn't really affect the views all that much.

1044
01:09:38,480 --> 01:09:42,840
I think that in terms of, like, how many followers you have, there's a baseline of, like,

1045
01:09:43,320 --> 01:09:46,760
the generic algorithm is just, like, oh, show it to a pocket of your followers and then

1046
01:09:46,760 --> 01:09:48,960
gradually expand that out depending on certain metrics.

1047
01:09:49,100 --> 01:09:52,900
Yeah. The retention and watch time of, like, each concentric circle.

1048
01:09:53,300 --> 01:09:57,600
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And then there are, like, secondary metrics, like, shares, comments,

1049
01:09:58,240 --> 01:10:03,480
likes, et cetera. And then they also change it based on, like, whatever levers the PMs are pulling.

1050
01:10:03,700 --> 01:10:09,180
Like, sometimes it'll be, like, they're prioritizing longer videos, like, over a minute to compete with

1051
01:10:09,180 --> 01:10:15,720
so you don't have cross-posted YouTube shorts. Right. But, like, yeah, I don't know. I think

1052
01:10:15,720 --> 01:10:23,800
I'll probably, I mean, I'll probably be busy for the next five to ten years with kids, honestly.

1053
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:30,240
Like, I could, I think it's, like, I could, you know, just spend all my time working on something.

1054
01:10:30,500 --> 01:10:38,320
But I think I already made the choice to focus on family, which, you know, I'll still be young-ish.

1055
01:10:38,480 --> 01:10:43,180
I mean, I'll be middle-aged. I am middle-aged. I'll be more middle-aged by the time they're in school.

1056
01:10:43,180 --> 01:10:45,740
How old are you? Is this public information? If you don't have to say, it's not.

1057
01:10:45,940 --> 01:10:48,840
Yeah, I'm 32. It's not, I don't hide it or anything.

1058
01:10:49,120 --> 01:10:55,280
Yeah. I mean, dude, like, I think the average startup's, successful startup founder's age is, like, 35 or 40 or something.

1059
01:10:55,400 --> 01:11:02,500
Like, it's way, you know, like, it's all, it's romanticized as, like, you know, these Stanford dropouts are the ones changing the world.

1060
01:11:02,500 --> 01:11:10,640
But really, most often, it's actually not. So, you know, I do hope I see you out, like, back to Chamath.

1061
01:11:10,700 --> 01:11:12,200
I see you in the arena one of these days.

1062
01:11:12,200 --> 01:11:12,720
In the arena.

1063
01:11:14,460 --> 01:11:18,940
Dude, this is an interesting podcast. I feel like we don't actually talk about, like, ourselves that much.

1064
01:11:18,980 --> 01:11:20,980
We've just talked about, like, the all-in podcast.

1065
01:11:21,180 --> 01:11:21,340
Yeah.

1066
01:11:22,200 --> 01:11:28,100
Dude, like, is our opinions really that valuable that we're just talking about critiquing, like, human behavior and all that stuff?

1067
01:11:28,300 --> 01:11:29,200
Meta-commentary.

1068
01:11:29,700 --> 01:11:36,760
I mean, I think it's, it's interesting just because, like, I don't know.

1069
01:11:37,060 --> 01:11:38,960
I feel like I've talked about my own story a lot.

1070
01:11:38,960 --> 01:11:41,880
And I guess I'd be more interested to hear about your story.

1071
01:11:42,020 --> 01:11:46,080
And you talked about fighting cancer at the same time as building your startup.

1072
01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:51,220
I assume you're, you know, you've won that battle and you're healthy now, question mark?

1073
01:11:52,480 --> 01:11:54,740
Yeah, I mean, I think I'm healthy now.

1074
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:56,140
Like, I get blood tests.

1075
01:11:57,080 --> 01:12:00,600
I haven't actually gotten my, so I got, like, half my thyroid removed.

1076
01:12:01,880 --> 01:12:06,520
And the doctor said the surgery was successful, so I should be cancer-free.

1077
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:09,140
But, yeah, it was super crazy.

1078
01:12:09,480 --> 01:12:21,340
Like, it was pretty crazy because I was literally growing my startup from basically nothing to making millions a year.

1079
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:24,520
Well, at the same time, I was diagnosed with cancer.

1080
01:12:25,380 --> 01:12:34,700
So, like, what's, like, that quote of, like, a tree can't reach the heights of heaven unless its roots are able to reach the depths of hell?

1081
01:12:35,160 --> 01:12:44,440
And, like, that's actually kind of how I felt a little bit where, like, everything in my life, because, like, you know, I'm kind of a, I'm kind of a dork, right?

1082
01:12:44,440 --> 01:12:52,180
But I never aspired for, like, you know, too many things besides really, like, all I wanted was my startup to, like, fucking be, bring value to some people.

1083
01:12:52,480 --> 01:12:56,060
Like, that was, like, it sounds like a weird goal, but that was just, like, my life's goal at the time.

1084
01:12:56,640 --> 01:12:58,160
And I was finally able to achieve it.

1085
01:12:58,200 --> 01:13:00,660
And then my life was possibly going to end at the same time.

1086
01:13:01,180 --> 01:13:04,640
Thankfully, it was, like, thyroid cancer, which is, like, the mortality rate is actually pretty low.

1087
01:13:05,380 --> 01:13:10,940
But, you know, even the disassociation of just saying, like, I have cancer was fucking crazy.

1088
01:13:11,340 --> 01:13:16,400
That took a long time for me to actually, like, be able to reconcile with that.

1089
01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:21,820
And then there was another part of, you know, there's complications with thyroid because it's in your neck.

1090
01:13:21,920 --> 01:13:26,460
Like, you could lose your voice or your voice could be, like, altered after the surgery.

1091
01:13:27,220 --> 01:13:31,160
And, like, my whole life, I obviously am not a bodybuilder.

1092
01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:33,080
There's nothing great, like, physically about me.

1093
01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:35,680
You know, there's nothing, like, I have no skills with my hands.

1094
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:36,920
I have no, like, trade skills.

1095
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:41,260
Like, everything I've done is all about, like, communicating things, like, being, like, a founder.

1096
01:13:41,760 --> 01:13:49,680
And so, like, the fact that, like, the one, you know, bringing about, like, a skill tree that I've been working on was in jeopardy was also really sad to me.

1097
01:13:49,720 --> 01:13:55,360
Because, you know, what if I woke up and, like, I couldn't speak?

1098
01:13:55,480 --> 01:13:56,960
Even if it was for, like, three months, six months.

1099
01:13:56,980 --> 01:13:57,780
That's actually pretty common.

1100
01:13:57,900 --> 01:14:00,760
For, like, a few months, you're not really able to speak that well.

1101
01:14:01,060 --> 01:14:03,840
Because, like, they have to move your vocal cords to, like, reach your thyroid.

1102
01:14:03,940 --> 01:14:07,140
So, like, it can take time for it to get back to its normal place.

1103
01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:13,100
But, yeah, it was, like, I mean, that's the high-level summary of it.

1104
01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:18,280
Of just, it was really made me reevaluate a lot of my personal life.

1105
01:14:18,360 --> 01:14:26,300
And it was just so interesting that it happened at the same time as the greatest things I've always wanted in my entire life happening at the same time.

1106
01:14:26,360 --> 01:14:27,160
So, it was, like, pretty crazy.

1107
01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:31,680
How did you even find out initially that you had anything going on?

1108
01:14:32,440 --> 01:14:33,840
Yeah, I was in Korea at the time.

1109
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:38,000
I have, like, this, like, growth in my jaw.

1110
01:14:38,220 --> 01:14:38,960
You can't see it.

1111
01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:41,040
But, like, if you feel it, it's, like, a little, like, marble.

1112
01:14:41,580 --> 01:14:42,840
And that was always trippy to me.

1113
01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:43,460
So, I went there.

1114
01:14:43,540 --> 01:14:46,180
And I was, like, hey, I have this growth in my jaw.

1115
01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:46,880
Can you check it for me?

1116
01:14:46,900 --> 01:14:47,580
And they did an ultrasound.

1117
01:14:47,760 --> 01:14:48,880
They're, like, actually, that's totally benign.

1118
01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:49,980
Don't worry about it.

1119
01:14:50,320 --> 01:14:52,860
Like, hey, since you're here, do you want to just, like, do your neck, too?

1120
01:14:52,940 --> 01:14:53,660
Like, just check it around?

1121
01:14:53,700 --> 01:14:54,820
I'm, like, yeah, sure.

1122
01:14:55,500 --> 01:14:56,740
And then they happened to check.

1123
01:14:56,740 --> 01:14:58,020
And they were, like, holy shit, dude.

1124
01:14:58,020 --> 01:15:00,420
You have, like, tumors in your thyroid.

1125
01:15:01,100 --> 01:15:04,060
You know it's, like, scary because I was in Korea.

1126
01:15:04,580 --> 01:15:06,880
Like, when the really nice Korean lady is, like, talkative.

1127
01:15:06,980 --> 01:15:07,960
Like, oh, you're so young.

1128
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:08,420
What are you doing?

1129
01:15:08,500 --> 01:15:09,620
You know, what's your job?

1130
01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:11,560
And then, like, complete silence for, like, three minutes.

1131
01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:14,600
She's just, like, continually going over, checking the team, taking pictures.

1132
01:15:14,740 --> 01:15:16,440
I'm, like, something's weird here.

1133
01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:18,820
And then, yeah.

1134
01:15:18,920 --> 01:15:20,040
So, it's actually complete luck.

1135
01:15:20,480 --> 01:15:27,000
The fact that she just happened to check my neck and then find thyroid cancer is, like, pretty crazy.

1136
01:15:27,360 --> 01:15:35,740
And I think, like, my life has been, like, middled with these, like, kind of unexplainable moments of, like, for example, I was once on a VC call.

1137
01:15:35,980 --> 01:15:38,100
It was going, like, totally lukewarm.

1138
01:15:38,360 --> 01:15:39,600
And then he saw my scar.

1139
01:15:40,020 --> 01:15:41,580
And then he actually had the same scar.

1140
01:15:41,660 --> 01:15:42,780
He actually also had thyroid cancer.

1141
01:15:42,980 --> 01:15:43,240
Wow.

1142
01:15:43,340 --> 01:15:45,020
And then he gave me a term sheet for $300,000.

1143
01:15:45,320 --> 01:15:49,760
You know, it's, like, really weird coincidences happening.

1144
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:53,260
You know, I'm not, like, a super religious person.

1145
01:15:53,260 --> 01:16:04,380
But just, like, when you kind of go through these things, our feeble monkey brains, I feel you just want to kind of chalk it up to, like, maybe there is such a thing as fate.

1146
01:16:04,820 --> 01:16:11,960
Maybe there is such a thing as, like, God, you know, and, you know, even if it's not totally logically coherent, it just feels nice.

1147
01:16:12,180 --> 01:16:15,620
It just makes me slightly happier throughout the day when I think about, like, these happy coincidences.

1148
01:16:17,140 --> 01:16:17,960
Yeah, definitely.

1149
01:16:17,960 --> 01:16:30,000
Like, everyone wanted to ascribe, like, all these happenstance and chance encounters to something bigger than themselves, like, a grand painting, tapestry of life, and, like, a small part of it being woven into, like, the correct spots.

1150
01:16:30,920 --> 01:16:31,120
Yeah.

1151
01:16:31,580 --> 01:16:40,940
I don't know how much time you got, but I have one last story on that kind of point of, like, before my surgery, it was a bunch of complications.

1152
01:16:40,940 --> 01:16:41,560
I had a fever.

1153
01:16:42,300 --> 01:16:44,520
They were saying, like, we should probably move the surgery.

1154
01:16:44,980 --> 01:16:46,700
But I was like, no, dude, I've been waiting so many months for this.

1155
01:16:46,700 --> 01:16:48,440
Like, let's just run it.

1156
01:16:48,880 --> 01:16:52,040
And so, but in order to do that, they had to, like, move some surgeries around.

1157
01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:54,020
So I actually didn't know when my surgery start date was.

1158
01:16:54,580 --> 01:16:56,040
So my mom was next to me.

1159
01:16:56,120 --> 01:16:57,260
She flew out to Korea with me.

1160
01:16:57,640 --> 01:17:00,700
And she was like, yeah, I have something I want to tell you before your surgery.

1161
01:17:01,680 --> 01:17:02,400
I was like, okay, that's fine.

1162
01:17:02,720 --> 01:17:07,840
And it just so happened that when she went to, like, the bathroom or something, the Korean nurses, like, came rushing in.

1163
01:17:07,880 --> 01:17:09,400
They were like, all right, we moved it around.

1164
01:17:09,460 --> 01:17:10,380
Right now is the time to go.

1165
01:17:10,800 --> 01:17:13,060
And I was like, okay, but my mom's not here.

1166
01:17:13,220 --> 01:17:14,180
You know, I don't speak Korean.

1167
01:17:14,380 --> 01:17:15,880
They're like, no, we got to go right now, right now.

1168
01:17:15,880 --> 01:17:17,520
I was like, okay, can I take my phone?

1169
01:17:17,580 --> 01:17:18,240
Like, no phone.

1170
01:17:19,420 --> 01:17:20,340
We're rocking and rolling.

1171
01:17:20,460 --> 01:17:20,820
I was like, okay.

1172
01:17:20,900 --> 01:17:22,100
So they wheeled me down.

1173
01:17:22,180 --> 01:17:23,040
I'm super scared.

1174
01:17:23,200 --> 01:17:24,560
I don't understand what they're saying to me.

1175
01:17:24,660 --> 01:17:28,320
Obviously, I'm like, I can speak Korean, but I don't know, like, papillary carcinoma.

1176
01:17:28,440 --> 01:17:29,960
And I don't know, you know, these medical terms.

1177
01:17:30,080 --> 01:17:31,140
And they're explaining this shit to me.

1178
01:17:31,160 --> 01:17:32,640
I'm signing documents I can't even read.

1179
01:17:33,140 --> 01:17:33,940
I'm really scared.

1180
01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:39,020
But then in the waiting room, I actually see above me on the ceiling, like, there's this

1181
01:17:39,020 --> 01:17:44,040
Bible verse of just like, it's some generic Bible verse, like, you know, don't leave it

1182
01:17:44,040 --> 01:17:46,360
all up to God or something kind of cliche, whatever.

1183
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:51,840
And for some reason, I was like, okay, I'll just, I've done all I can do.

1184
01:17:51,880 --> 01:17:54,160
I'll just leave it all up to the big man upstairs.

1185
01:17:54,480 --> 01:17:55,900
I'll just go into the surgery.

1186
01:17:56,580 --> 01:17:58,840
And then so long story short, they do the surgery.

1187
01:17:59,040 --> 01:17:59,760
It was pretty crazy.

1188
01:18:00,160 --> 01:18:01,700
I wake up to like blood everywhere.

1189
01:18:01,840 --> 01:18:02,640
It's like nuts.

1190
01:18:03,200 --> 01:18:04,100
I can't really move.

1191
01:18:04,160 --> 01:18:04,820
I can't really talk.

1192
01:18:05,480 --> 01:18:09,940
But, you know, eventually five days later, I'm able to like whisper out some words.

1193
01:18:09,980 --> 01:18:13,240
And I'm like, you know, hey, mom, what was that thing that you wanted to tell me before

1194
01:18:13,240 --> 01:18:13,740
my surgery?

1195
01:18:13,860 --> 01:18:17,380
And she's like, oh, it's actually, and then she told me the Bible verse that was on the

1196
01:18:17,380 --> 01:18:19,300
ceiling, the same Bible verse, right?

1197
01:18:19,480 --> 01:18:20,760
And it's like a cute little story.

1198
01:18:20,980 --> 01:18:25,860
We could obviously logically say like, oh, you know, the SEO of like what to tell a surgery

1199
01:18:25,860 --> 01:18:27,280
patient before going to surgery.

1200
01:18:27,400 --> 01:18:30,640
The dude who wrote that on the ceiling and maybe my mom Googled the same thing and they

1201
01:18:30,640 --> 01:18:31,760
ended up with the same Bible verse.

1202
01:18:31,820 --> 01:18:33,560
Or maybe it's just like one of the most popular Bible verses.

1203
01:18:33,780 --> 01:18:37,220
So it's like not that remarkable that they happen to be the same thing.

1204
01:18:37,340 --> 01:18:43,000
But I think like the story is way more beautiful when you think about it.

1205
01:18:43,140 --> 01:18:44,840
Like, man, like I was ready to bolt out of there.

1206
01:18:44,940 --> 01:18:46,060
I didn't know what the hell was happening.

1207
01:18:46,120 --> 01:18:46,940
I was signing things I didn't know.

1208
01:18:46,960 --> 01:18:47,540
I was really scared.

1209
01:18:47,760 --> 01:18:51,780
But because that was on the ceiling, you know, I felt a little more resolve and I stayed

1210
01:18:51,780 --> 01:18:54,840
and I got this, I got the surgery and now I feel a lot better.

1211
01:18:54,840 --> 01:19:00,400
So, yeah, like, so ever since then, I've always kind of started thinking more in terms

1212
01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:06,160
of like happy miracles and happy, like, like fate.

1213
01:19:06,500 --> 01:19:11,140
And it probably makes me lose a little street cred in these like data scientists, like logic

1214
01:19:11,140 --> 01:19:12,080
X circles.

1215
01:19:12,080 --> 01:19:12,380
Right.

1216
01:19:12,380 --> 01:19:14,800
But, you know, who gives a fuck about their opinion?

1217
01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:16,860
Like I'm maximizing for my own happiness.

1218
01:19:16,860 --> 01:19:22,740
And when I see the world through this lens, like I just am, I'm just a nicer person.

1219
01:19:22,740 --> 01:19:23,540
I'm a happier person.

1220
01:19:23,540 --> 01:19:29,800
So, yeah, that's just like one kind of like funny, miraculous kind of story from my surgery

1221
01:19:29,800 --> 01:19:30,060
day.

1222
01:19:31,100 --> 01:19:32,400
Yeah, that's an amazing story.

1223
01:19:32,540 --> 01:19:36,220
It's definitely the best one that's been told on my podcast anyway.

1224
01:19:36,340 --> 01:19:36,660
Really?

1225
01:19:36,920 --> 01:19:38,040
No, you're just being polite.

1226
01:19:38,280 --> 01:19:38,880
But I appreciate it.

1227
01:19:38,880 --> 01:19:39,120
Really?

1228
01:19:39,400 --> 01:19:42,780
I mean, how much better can you get than like a life threatening situation?

1229
01:19:42,780 --> 01:19:45,420
Like, yeah, yeah, that's true.

1230
01:19:46,300 --> 01:19:46,660
Yeah.

1231
01:19:46,700 --> 01:19:51,360
I mean, I think that's a really great mindset to have because I would say I'm generally a

1232
01:19:51,360 --> 01:19:52,440
somewhat depressing person.

1233
01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:53,480
And my wife.

1234
01:19:53,620 --> 01:19:54,580
You kind of seem like that, dude.

1235
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:55,800
You kind of, I'm not going to lie.

1236
01:19:55,920 --> 01:19:57,120
Like you're a little like, yeah.

1237
01:19:57,520 --> 01:20:00,800
My like general contentment levels are probably a bit below average.

1238
01:20:01,140 --> 01:20:04,800
But I think that my wife, hers are like very high, naturally.

1239
01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:10,300
And her mindset is much more similar to the one that you, I guess, had, have now.

1240
01:20:10,740 --> 01:20:10,880
Yeah.

1241
01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:12,640
Where it's like everything kind of happens for a reason.

1242
01:20:13,440 --> 01:20:13,600
Yeah.

1243
01:20:14,840 --> 01:20:18,160
And I'm kind of just like, oh, well, everything just happens because it happens.

1244
01:20:18,780 --> 01:20:20,060
But, yeah, I don't know.

1245
01:20:20,780 --> 01:20:25,200
I think a lot of it is inherited in some way because my brothers, they're also kind of like

1246
01:20:25,200 --> 01:20:26,540
lower on the happiness levels.

1247
01:20:26,980 --> 01:20:27,580
A little gloomy.

1248
01:20:27,900 --> 01:20:28,540
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1249
01:20:28,540 --> 01:20:29,720
Too realistic, yeah.

1250
01:20:29,880 --> 01:20:31,120
Yeah, I don't know what it is.

1251
01:20:31,500 --> 01:20:35,060
But I mean, I was like that too, man.

1252
01:20:35,160 --> 01:20:36,120
I was definitely like that too.

1253
01:20:36,180 --> 01:20:38,920
And it's not, I don't want to spin some like lie.

1254
01:20:39,040 --> 01:20:44,080
I still have, I think the reason we were able to kind of have like a pretty well-flown discussion

1255
01:20:44,080 --> 01:20:49,080
is like I have traces of kind of being too pragmatic and like looking at kind of like

1256
01:20:49,080 --> 01:20:50,860
the faults in the world.

1257
01:20:50,960 --> 01:20:53,840
Like it's pretty easy to poke, it's so easy to poke holes in things, right?

1258
01:20:54,120 --> 01:20:56,400
It's so easy to look at the world and like, yeah, that is stupid.

1259
01:20:56,400 --> 01:20:57,300
That is inefficient.

1260
01:20:57,460 --> 01:20:58,260
That is suboptimal.

1261
01:20:58,900 --> 01:21:01,320
But like, is that really how we want to live our lives?

1262
01:21:01,420 --> 01:21:07,260
Like I would rather just, yeah, I would rather just focus on the positive stuff.

1263
01:21:07,580 --> 01:21:08,360
So, yeah.

1264
01:21:08,540 --> 01:21:12,660
And I think it's, especially when you're an engineer, like when you're literally trained

1265
01:21:12,660 --> 01:21:18,000
to be like, hey, you know, you will be rewarded for having this mindset and looking at things

1266
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:23,340
with like a critical eye, but then it's like the saying, it's like, you choose to critique

1267
01:21:23,340 --> 01:21:27,940
something and you can either like do something about it or not, or like, do you have a way

1268
01:21:27,940 --> 01:21:29,280
to potentially solve a situation?

1269
01:21:29,840 --> 01:21:31,980
Like, are you looking just to poke holes just to be critical?

1270
01:21:32,260 --> 01:21:36,660
Or like, can you try to flip your mindset and think of like, well, how could that idea

1271
01:21:36,660 --> 01:21:37,520
be successful?

1272
01:21:37,640 --> 01:21:38,740
Or like, how would you fix that?

1273
01:21:38,980 --> 01:21:40,820
If you can't fix it, then like, don't worry about it.

1274
01:21:40,860 --> 01:21:41,280
Kind of deal.

1275
01:21:41,360 --> 01:21:41,500
Yeah.

1276
01:21:42,220 --> 01:21:42,580
Yeah.

1277
01:21:42,800 --> 01:21:44,660
I mean, it's tough.

1278
01:21:44,980 --> 01:21:45,660
It's definitely tough.

1279
01:21:46,100 --> 01:21:46,280
Yeah.

1280
01:21:46,380 --> 01:21:47,220
How much time we got?

1281
01:21:47,280 --> 01:21:54,600
You want to share like one crazy now, now that you kind of heard my story, anything like

1282
01:21:54,600 --> 01:21:56,260
kind of miraculous ever happened to you?

1283
01:21:56,320 --> 01:21:57,220
The most miraculous thing.

1284
01:21:57,260 --> 01:21:59,040
It almost feels like it was written.

1285
01:21:59,400 --> 01:22:04,960
It almost feels like a, like a, you wouldn't believe it if it was in a movie because it's

1286
01:22:04,960 --> 01:22:05,700
just too cliche.

1287
01:22:05,700 --> 01:22:07,500
Like something kind of like that ever happened to you?

1288
01:22:08,460 --> 01:22:13,880
Um, not nearly as good as yours, but just, I guess on how I actually met my wife was very,

1289
01:22:14,020 --> 01:22:20,080
very unlikely because, so first of all, when I was moving to SF, the person who I was about

1290
01:22:20,080 --> 01:22:22,800
to get a room with, uh, he's renting out his extra room.

1291
01:22:23,080 --> 01:22:28,220
He actually emailed me two weeks before and said like, Hey, I'm going to rent it out to

1292
01:22:28,220 --> 01:22:28,780
some other dude.

1293
01:22:28,780 --> 01:22:30,360
Cause he's paying me more, more money.

1294
01:22:30,640 --> 01:22:34,280
And so like his parents bought him the condo.

1295
01:22:34,360 --> 01:22:35,360
I'm like, well, that sucks.

1296
01:22:35,360 --> 01:22:41,780
So I go to try to find like an Airbnb, uh, and I eventually find one and this girl, she's

1297
01:22:41,780 --> 01:22:46,120
like, Hey, if you want like a more long-term thing, uh, we could think about like making

1298
01:22:46,120 --> 01:22:51,080
this like a unofficial sublease, uh, kind of skirting around Airbnb to get around the

1299
01:22:51,080 --> 01:22:51,660
fees and such.

1300
01:22:52,360 --> 01:22:55,040
Um, turns out she was like a huge psychopath and.

1301
01:22:55,500 --> 01:22:56,220
Oh my gosh.

1302
01:22:56,260 --> 01:22:59,160
It was like potentially the worst person I've met in my life.

1303
01:22:59,260 --> 01:23:02,180
Thus for it could be worse people in the future.

1304
01:23:02,300 --> 01:23:03,540
I thought she was going to be her wife.

1305
01:23:03,600 --> 01:23:05,600
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

1306
01:23:05,600 --> 01:23:05,800
Yeah.

1307
01:23:05,800 --> 01:23:12,500
And then I changed her and now we're very, uh, but eventually, uh, so we, I guess, well,

1308
01:23:12,500 --> 01:23:18,540
because she earned a decent amount of money and all the other people that I, I knew in SF

1309
01:23:18,540 --> 01:23:21,400
slash were friends with, didn't earn as much money.

1310
01:23:21,660 --> 01:23:27,540
Uh, I still lived with her for renew the lease at a different place and we got like a bigger

1311
01:23:27,540 --> 01:23:33,140
place and nicer and then she tried to rent out the living room, uh, while I was on like

1312
01:23:33,140 --> 01:23:34,640
a tech conference or something.

1313
01:23:35,540 --> 01:23:39,180
And so the first, there was like four people interested.

1314
01:23:39,440 --> 01:23:45,120
The first person, um, she was like the person who worked at Google and she kind of backed out

1315
01:23:45,120 --> 01:23:49,440
because I think she was getting bad vibes from my roommate, uh, which were correctly sussed

1316
01:23:49,440 --> 01:23:55,460
uh, second person was a dude and his mom didn't want him living in the living room.

1317
01:23:56,460 --> 01:24:02,060
Uh, third person, um, ended up backing out just for whatever reasons.

1318
01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:07,980
And then the fourth person, uh, which ended up being my eventual wife, she moved in because

1319
01:24:07,980 --> 01:24:12,860
and my like psychopath roommate didn't want to rent it out to her cause she felt like she

1320
01:24:12,860 --> 01:24:19,740
was kind of suss, like she was from Canada, worked in like a sales position, um, and was

1321
01:24:19,740 --> 01:24:23,740
like, okay, well, you know, don't want to rent it out to her.

1322
01:24:23,820 --> 01:24:25,860
She seems like the least stable out of these, all these choices.

1323
01:24:26,480 --> 01:24:33,180
So she eventually moved in, uh, I eventually, against my better judgment and all the judgment

1324
01:24:33,180 --> 01:24:38,220
of all my friends saying, Hey, don't date your roommate, uh, pursued a relationship with

1325
01:24:38,220 --> 01:24:40,460
that girl who ended up living in the living room.

1326
01:24:40,460 --> 01:24:47,700
Uh, and then we eventually, and then there was like a huge legal battle issue with that psychopath

1327
01:24:47,700 --> 01:24:53,940
roommate and the landlord and yeah, you know, we ended up getting like somewhat kind of kicked

1328
01:24:53,940 --> 01:24:57,600
out, not officially, but like kind of, they're like, Hey, we're going to evict you unless

1329
01:24:57,600 --> 01:24:59,340
you just officially move out.

1330
01:24:59,440 --> 01:25:02,720
My roommate was threatening to like flood the place and flee to China.

1331
01:25:03,040 --> 01:25:10,180
Uh, the, the, the psychopath one, she did a bunch more crazy stuff, like on us, um, threatened

1332
01:25:10,180 --> 01:25:13,820
to like self-harm herself when her boyfriend was threatening to leave her.

1333
01:25:14,040 --> 01:25:16,140
She was like seeing all these dudes.

1334
01:25:16,140 --> 01:25:18,820
She like got all these STTs.

1335
01:25:19,460 --> 01:25:25,840
Um, but, um, anyway, kind of story goes on, but, uh, eventually that person who moved into

1336
01:25:25,840 --> 01:25:28,000
my living room and like, we're so, so different.

1337
01:25:28,240 --> 01:25:30,280
Like she's like this outgoing salesperson.

1338
01:25:30,860 --> 01:25:32,720
Uh, I was like nerdy tech dude.

1339
01:25:32,920 --> 01:25:35,760
Like we would have never really met in any other circumstance.

1340
01:25:36,820 --> 01:25:38,260
Um, that's crazy.

1341
01:25:38,400 --> 01:25:39,400
That's so beautiful, man.

1342
01:25:39,500 --> 01:25:40,420
That's a crazy story.

1343
01:25:41,280 --> 01:25:41,640
Yeah.

1344
01:25:41,720 --> 01:25:45,240
I mean, I think it's more of like a, like a, like almost like a rom-com kind of thing

1345
01:25:45,240 --> 01:25:46,760
where yours is more like a drama, right?

1346
01:25:46,800 --> 01:25:49,500
Yours has like the highs and lows and mine's just kind of go like, ha ha.

1347
01:25:50,900 --> 01:25:53,280
I did have to, I had to put more stakes on the table.

1348
01:25:53,280 --> 01:25:56,100
I think of like my life or like, I guess you put a lot of stakes.

1349
01:25:56,220 --> 01:25:59,020
You're the person you choose to spend the rest of your life with is pretty crazy too.

1350
01:25:59,080 --> 01:26:01,880
So, I mean, she's not crazy, but it is a crazy decision.

1351
01:26:02,400 --> 01:26:04,560
Um, so yeah, I mean, I love your story.

1352
01:26:04,820 --> 01:26:09,180
I mean, I have a crazy story with my girlfriend that I am with right now too, but basically like

1353
01:26:09,180 --> 01:26:12,460
that's what life's about really like finding, like that's the most important decision

1354
01:26:12,460 --> 01:26:17,740
is finding like your life partner and like, I'm glad that your living room was Airbnb'd out.

1355
01:26:17,940 --> 01:26:22,200
I guess that was the really determining factor of like this whole trajectory of your life

1356
01:26:22,200 --> 01:26:26,640
is just your living room, your Airbnb living room, which is pretty funny.

1357
01:26:27,360 --> 01:26:27,560
Yeah.

1358
01:26:27,740 --> 01:26:29,120
It's, I don't know.

1359
01:26:29,180 --> 01:26:34,500
Like, like you said, there's all these things that kind of, I mean, I think we've both been

1360
01:26:34,500 --> 01:26:35,960
very fortunate in a lot of ways.

1361
01:26:35,960 --> 01:26:44,340
Um, and aside tiny fun fact that I read about recently, Asian Americans, specifically like

1362
01:26:44,340 --> 01:26:53,260
Eastern Asians who have been more or less assimilated, who like are English speaking, grew up in the

1363
01:26:53,260 --> 01:27:00,220
West perform better, like make more money when you standardize the IQ compared to their white

1364
01:27:00,220 --> 01:27:00,720
counterparts.

1365
01:27:00,920 --> 01:27:07,000
So basically out of like all the different ethnicities, it's like Asian people are killing

1366
01:27:07,000 --> 01:27:08,520
it, like career and money wise.

1367
01:27:09,220 --> 01:27:13,180
Um, and then the article didn't really go into the like whys.

1368
01:27:13,400 --> 01:27:13,980
The why, yeah.

1369
01:27:14,040 --> 01:27:14,520
Cause like.

1370
01:27:14,620 --> 01:27:15,920
Cause that would be like racist, right?

1371
01:27:16,020 --> 01:27:16,640
Yeah, exactly.

1372
01:27:16,880 --> 01:27:17,660
But you know, it just.

1373
01:27:17,660 --> 01:27:18,720
Let's not get into it here either.

1374
01:27:19,660 --> 01:27:20,460
Ah, whatever.

1375
01:27:20,880 --> 01:27:22,180
No one's going to listen to this last part.

1376
01:27:22,260 --> 01:27:23,720
We're like in the, in the dregs.

1377
01:27:23,720 --> 01:27:29,280
But I think it mostly comes down to culture because it's like, I think our parents, at

1378
01:27:29,280 --> 01:27:34,160
least majority of Asian parents that I know of, they're really instill like, Hey, education,

1379
01:27:34,320 --> 01:27:38,740
hard work, um, like putting your head down and doing the work, which I think also leads

1380
01:27:38,740 --> 01:27:43,780
to this personality of like, we're not awesome at socializing because instead of like going

1381
01:27:43,780 --> 01:27:47,720
out to party and dating and doing all this sports and stuff growing up, it's like, Hey,

1382
01:27:48,100 --> 01:27:49,380
you know, we're studying, hitting the books.

1383
01:27:49,380 --> 01:27:50,380
We're doing well on our tests.

1384
01:27:50,840 --> 01:27:54,300
Um, we're putting the work in, which also leads to these situations in the workplace

1385
01:27:54,300 --> 01:27:59,760
or in networking events or like raising VC money where you're kind of at a disadvantage

1386
01:27:59,760 --> 01:28:04,100
because like, instead of getting people to look at the metrics and being like, Hey, you

1387
01:28:04,100 --> 01:28:05,000
know, I'm doing good work.

1388
01:28:05,080 --> 01:28:07,620
I have this industry knowledge.

1389
01:28:07,620 --> 01:28:09,740
Like you can look at my metrics and look at this growth.

1390
01:28:09,740 --> 01:28:11,280
Like this should be enough, right?

1391
01:28:11,400 --> 01:28:13,820
Like look at the numbers, look at the data.

1392
01:28:14,140 --> 01:28:18,340
And then a lot of people who are completely Westernized, right?

1393
01:28:18,680 --> 01:28:23,220
They're, they're expecting a lot of like the chit chat that like wine and dine, the, um,

1394
01:28:23,220 --> 01:28:24,440
the socialization aspect.

1395
01:28:25,020 --> 01:28:30,900
Um, but I guess like overall, when you average it out against entire population, like this

1396
01:28:30,900 --> 01:28:34,800
still turns out to be like a high expected value play.

1397
01:28:34,800 --> 01:28:41,120
Like it on turns out like working really hard and keeping your head down, um, still works

1398
01:28:41,120 --> 01:28:41,800
out pretty well.

1399
01:28:42,440 --> 01:28:44,020
Dude, a hundred percent.

1400
01:28:44,380 --> 01:28:50,380
And the crazy thing is like, I think that I honestly feel like the world was just like,

1401
01:28:50,380 --> 01:28:54,040
it's giving me so many miracles because I'm the exact same way of like, I'm not really

1402
01:28:54,040 --> 01:28:54,820
good at socializing.

1403
01:28:54,980 --> 01:29:00,220
I just want to put my head down and work, but it happened to, it happened to be the COVID

1404
01:29:00,220 --> 01:29:00,980
took over the world.

1405
01:29:01,380 --> 01:29:07,340
So that I actually was pitching to VCs over like webcam, which is much less scary than

1406
01:29:07,340 --> 01:29:10,520
having to stand in front of like in a boardroom with the, with the monitor, you know?

1407
01:29:10,520 --> 01:29:14,760
And like having to actually like go to these networking parties, but like now I can just

1408
01:29:14,760 --> 01:29:15,360
join via zoom.

1409
01:29:15,360 --> 01:29:19,720
And it was like, that was so good for me as somebody with like, not the best socializing

1410
01:29:19,720 --> 01:29:20,020
skills.

1411
01:29:20,180 --> 01:29:23,040
And then on top of that, when COVID relaxed, everyone had masks.

1412
01:29:23,580 --> 01:29:28,460
So when I had, when, when I had to actually go to these pitch pitches to like do it in

1413
01:29:28,460 --> 01:29:32,520
person and in front of crowds, I was able to wear a mask, which makes it so much less scary

1414
01:29:32,520 --> 01:29:36,500
because like, you know, even if my face turns red or I feel like a question flusters me,

1415
01:29:36,520 --> 01:29:38,720
I was able to kind of hide that behind a mask.

1416
01:29:38,840 --> 01:29:42,600
And then once you do that enough, you don't really need the mask because you have enough

1417
01:29:42,600 --> 01:29:45,420
of like the experience doing it on stage with the mask.

1418
01:29:45,420 --> 01:29:50,800
So, yeah, I mean, like I totally vibe with that of like, you know, I feel like in general,

1419
01:29:50,800 --> 01:29:55,980
Asian-Americans are a little more timid, a little more reserved and a little more just

1420
01:29:55,980 --> 01:29:58,000
kind of heads down and focus.

1421
01:29:58,880 --> 01:30:03,900
And it just so happened that the cards were played out where like, even though I didn't

1422
01:30:03,900 --> 01:30:08,280
have these other skill sets, like the circumstances turned out where I didn't really need them

1423
01:30:08,280 --> 01:30:08,920
as much.

1424
01:30:09,320 --> 01:30:13,760
And I think honestly, that played to a lot of like my current startup success is just those

1425
01:30:13,760 --> 01:30:14,580
circumstances.

1426
01:30:14,580 --> 01:30:18,900
So a lot of like my success is like luck, like like that, these things kind of unfolding

1427
01:30:18,900 --> 01:30:24,480
and it kind of goes back to like, these are really crazy miracles of like the entire world

1428
01:30:24,480 --> 01:30:29,560
had to shut down for me to have like an equal fighting chances, like the absolute Riz Lord

1429
01:30:29,560 --> 01:30:30,220
from Stanford.

1430
01:30:30,420 --> 01:30:34,200
You could go into the building room and just like, you know, look these guys, these like

1431
01:30:34,200 --> 01:30:36,040
billionaires in the eyes and get a hundred thousand check.

1432
01:30:36,140 --> 01:30:38,640
I can't even look them in the eyes like when I'm 2021.

1433
01:30:38,980 --> 01:30:39,120
Right.

1434
01:30:39,160 --> 01:30:41,860
So, but, you know, it's easy for me to look at myself on the screen.

1435
01:30:41,860 --> 01:30:43,320
It's easy for me to like share a screen.

1436
01:30:43,320 --> 01:30:46,180
If I'm like a little pixel in the corner, it's not that scary to me.

1437
01:30:46,180 --> 01:30:48,600
So, um, yeah, no, I totally agree.

1438
01:30:48,700 --> 01:30:51,620
Like, uh, I don't, I mean, you can link me to it after, but like, yeah, that, that does

1439
01:30:51,620 --> 01:30:52,500
make a lot of sense to me.

1440
01:30:53,460 --> 01:30:53,780
Yeah.

1441
01:30:53,920 --> 01:30:54,640
And it's hilarious.

1442
01:30:54,640 --> 01:31:00,740
Cause like the zoom evening out the playing field is also been studied somewhat.

1443
01:31:00,740 --> 01:31:05,160
And it's like people who are taller have advantage in the workplace, but over zoom, everyone's

1444
01:31:05,160 --> 01:31:05,680
the same height.

1445
01:31:06,360 --> 01:31:08,500
Dude, we're both six, four right now.

1446
01:31:08,560 --> 01:31:09,820
We're both six, four, man.

1447
01:31:10,480 --> 01:31:11,520
And not even that.

1448
01:31:11,600 --> 01:31:16,820
So like, if someone works remotes, like I remember this one dude, he was like a contractor at Grubhub.

1449
01:31:17,040 --> 01:31:19,060
He came in, dude was completely jacked.

1450
01:31:19,180 --> 01:31:23,360
Like you couldn't tell from his like up cause it just looked like a normal guy, but he came

1451
01:31:23,360 --> 01:31:23,760
to the office.

1452
01:31:23,880 --> 01:31:25,740
Dude was huge, like tall, jacked.

1453
01:31:25,800 --> 01:31:29,240
It's like, he probably would have gotten more money if he came to the office, but he was

1454
01:31:29,240 --> 01:31:30,000
like a remote worker.

1455
01:31:30,680 --> 01:31:35,740
And I think to a lesser extent, it even has to do with female attractiveness levels.

1456
01:31:36,260 --> 01:31:38,600
So they found out, I forget what the, this was like high school.

1457
01:31:39,400 --> 01:31:44,780
I hope it was high school, but teachers generally would give better grades to females who are

1458
01:31:44,780 --> 01:31:46,160
more attractive, both genders.

1459
01:31:47,040 --> 01:31:53,380
And so high school teachers would, teachers would, but over zoom, it's a little icky, but

1460
01:31:53,380 --> 01:31:58,580
like over online, over zoom, like that effect diminished effectively zero.

1461
01:31:59,220 --> 01:32:05,220
Um, and I think that's like, like he's mentioned earlier, like we can't escape our human impulses

1462
01:32:05,220 --> 01:32:10,620
and like people who are more attractive and like taller, uh, in person, like they get a

1463
01:32:10,620 --> 01:32:16,780
lot of these advantages, but like, as we move to a lot of online interactions and zoom calls, um,

1464
01:32:16,940 --> 01:32:18,820
the play field actually does get evened out a bunch.

1465
01:32:19,180 --> 01:32:22,520
Assuming you can speak like proper English, there's always still that language barrier, which,

1466
01:32:23,380 --> 01:32:27,220
you know, with AI, maybe it'll actually be gone soon.

1467
01:32:27,220 --> 01:32:29,940
It's like, I actually saw something pretty crazy recently.

1468
01:32:30,140 --> 01:32:37,140
A person had a live transcription of the interviewer asking questions and then hooked that up to

1469
01:32:37,140 --> 01:32:37,680
chat GBT.

1470
01:32:38,520 --> 01:32:39,480
Oh, my buddy made that.

1471
01:32:39,720 --> 01:32:40,140
Oh, my buddy.

1472
01:32:40,480 --> 01:32:40,620
Cool.

1473
01:32:40,760 --> 01:32:40,880
Yeah.

1474
01:32:40,980 --> 01:32:41,560
Oh, okay.

1475
01:32:41,880 --> 01:32:42,120
Yeah.

1476
01:32:42,680 --> 01:32:43,940
My boy Aiden made that tool.

1477
01:32:44,020 --> 01:32:46,800
It's like, uh, uh, it's like your AI interview helper.

1478
01:32:47,220 --> 01:32:50,400
And then it's like, it's like, you could, it shows what the asset and gives you like a script

1479
01:32:50,400 --> 01:32:51,080
of what you could answer.

1480
01:32:51,220 --> 01:32:54,540
And then the person used it to answer like these chemistry questions and they weren't

1481
01:32:54,540 --> 01:32:56,060
trained in like chemistry at all.

1482
01:32:56,740 --> 01:32:56,900
Yeah.

1483
01:32:57,440 --> 01:33:01,600
I was like, yeah, the future of interviewing, how are you even fix that?

1484
01:33:01,740 --> 01:33:01,940
I don't know.

1485
01:33:01,940 --> 01:33:07,760
The crazier AI is like, there's a company selling to like offshore, like customer sales

1486
01:33:07,760 --> 01:33:12,160
service where the person speaks and then the AI removes their accent.

1487
01:33:12,360 --> 01:33:17,220
So they just sound like a person born in the USA, which is like, I don't know how I feel

1488
01:33:17,220 --> 01:33:22,420
about that, but it probably is going to increase customer satisfaction, unfortunately, just

1489
01:33:22,420 --> 01:33:26,520
because people don't like, people want to feel like they're talking to you, you know?

1490
01:33:27,460 --> 01:33:28,800
So, I mean, yeah.

1491
01:33:28,980 --> 01:33:31,700
Like, so it's going to be kind of wild.

1492
01:33:31,840 --> 01:33:36,400
Like, I'm not like, even the weird things like the AI that makes it your eyes are always

1493
01:33:36,400 --> 01:33:37,160
looking into the camera.

1494
01:33:37,460 --> 01:33:37,560
Yeah.

1495
01:33:37,720 --> 01:33:37,860
Yeah.

1496
01:33:38,060 --> 01:33:41,480
So that in conjunction with the script on the right, in conjunction with making your

1497
01:33:41,480 --> 01:33:43,580
voice, like five octaves deeper.

1498
01:33:43,580 --> 01:33:48,340
So you sound like a giga chad and then like a deep fake to make yourself like the, make

1499
01:33:48,340 --> 01:33:51,880
your receding hairline a little more or less than like all that, dude, it's going to be

1500
01:33:51,880 --> 01:33:52,180
crazy.

1501
01:33:52,340 --> 01:33:53,580
I don't know what the future is going to look like.

1502
01:33:54,100 --> 01:33:58,960
It's like, you already see the influencers with filters and it's just taking that to the

1503
01:33:58,960 --> 01:34:01,260
next level of like all this stuff put together.

1504
01:34:01,400 --> 01:34:04,560
You can look and sound like anyone online effectively.

1505
01:34:05,420 --> 01:34:06,400
Dude, wait till we meet.

1506
01:34:06,540 --> 01:34:07,660
I'm like three foot two.

1507
01:34:08,200 --> 01:34:09,920
I'm like, I'm actually not even Asian.

1508
01:34:10,040 --> 01:34:10,140
No.

1509
01:34:10,600 --> 01:34:13,060
This is just a really good filter.

1510
01:34:13,560 --> 01:34:14,020
Yeah, exactly.

1511
01:34:14,200 --> 01:34:14,340
Yeah.

1512
01:34:15,480 --> 01:34:15,840
Okay.

1513
01:34:15,880 --> 01:34:16,880
I probably got to get going soon.

1514
01:34:16,920 --> 01:34:18,320
I got to go pick up my kids.

1515
01:34:18,960 --> 01:34:20,960
Dude, genuinely fun talking with you.

1516
01:34:21,120 --> 01:34:22,260
Genuinely fun talking with you, man.

1517
01:34:22,500 --> 01:34:22,740
Yeah.

1518
01:34:22,860 --> 01:34:29,460
I mean, definitely we should chat again with updates on your just life and also even get

1519
01:34:29,460 --> 01:34:32,720
to get a chance to ask about your hobbies or like what you'd like to do in your downtime.

1520
01:34:33,380 --> 01:34:35,040
Dude, we're just philosophizing, man.

1521
01:34:35,040 --> 01:34:39,980
I'm like, we're solving the world's most toughest questions on this podcast.

1522
01:34:40,840 --> 01:34:41,020
Yeah.

1523
01:34:41,160 --> 01:34:43,900
In the future, this is how you solve all the problems.

1524
01:34:44,000 --> 01:34:50,460
Have all your calls filtered so everyone's level-y, attractive, and boom.

1525
01:34:51,000 --> 01:34:51,360
Boom.

1526
01:34:51,460 --> 01:34:52,080
No more nepotism.

1527
01:34:52,080 --> 01:34:52,280
There you go.

1528
01:34:52,420 --> 01:34:53,440
Good way to end it.

1529
01:34:53,700 --> 01:34:55,040
But yeah, thanks so much for having me on, dude.

1530
01:34:55,180 --> 01:34:56,340
I don't do a lot of podcasts.

1531
01:34:56,460 --> 01:34:58,600
Hopefully, this was entertaining for whoever's listening.

1532
01:34:58,880 --> 01:35:00,920
Like, dude, well, let's do this again sometime.

1533
01:35:01,820 --> 01:35:02,060
For sure.

1534
01:35:02,300 --> 01:35:02,560
Awesome.

1535
01:35:02,780 --> 01:35:03,600
Thanks for joining, David.

1536
01:35:04,100 --> 01:35:07,420
And thank you to everyone listening to the Frankly Speaking podcast.

1537
01:35:08,140 --> 01:35:09,020
I'll see you next time.