E6: Parenthood

Transcript

Machine-generated (Whisper). Download: VTT · SRT

0:00 Interesting thing that happened to us recently. If there's something in your teeth, you should probably floss. Like the prep and everything? I mean, we didn't really prep. I don't think. We were very fertile, so we got... I was not talking about that part. Wait, what are you talking about? All right, hello and welcome to the Frankly Speaking podcast. This is podcast episode number six. Today, I am joined again by my lovely wife, Annie. Hi. And we will be talking about our journey through parenthood. Basically, what led up to it. I guess what happened the day of and kind of what we've been up to with two kids.

0:38 Yeah, so Annie got pregnant. She went through all the normal like three trimester symptoms. Went through like the mood swings, the like cravings, the throwing up. Yeah, I had really bad acne throughout this pregnancy. The first pregnancy, it was so bad because I've had acne issues before and then I went on Accutane and then I haven't had acne until this pregnancy. I was just freaking out because I thought my acne was coming back. Like, oh, also at your one first trimester checkup, they draw like 12 tubes of blood and no one tells you that.

1:11 Like, I think that's the one thing that surprised me a lot is like nobody prepares you for everything that you're expected to know during pregnancy and you're just finding out as you go. Yeah, especially like, I don't even like when they draw one vial of blood for like my yearly checkup. Yeah, I hate needles and like I hate getting my blood taken and it's like, it's kind of unclear why they need so much. I feel like a lot of the tests they run in the States is kind of extraneous. Yes, I think that's true because I did not get that many tests in Canada, like maybe half.

1:50 I feel like, I mean, they charge you for every single test that they run and then they're like, oh, this is necessary, that is necessary. I don't have to do a lot of that in Canada during my second pregnancy. Yeah, the whole, so when Annie was pregnant the second time in Canada, the entire process was way more chill. Like, hospital was more chill, the nurses and doctors seemed less stressed. Yeah. They, it seemed like there were less, we also had less complications like during the actual birthing process.

2:17 Right. Yeah, in Canada, I don't know why maybe people up here or our specific doctors and hospitals that we got, um, just a much more enjoyable process, way less people too. I'm not sure if it's COVID also impacted that. So like people weren't, um, allowed to just wait around in the waiting rooms. Like they really made sure they like staggered the appointments so that they don't have like a bunch of people. So the actual like pregnancy, um, I don't think there were really too many complications really.

2:49 Like we can kind of skip ahead to when Annie actually needed to go to the hospital. Yeah. So like the weeks leading up to the birth, uh, it felt like I was on call, but for like potential having to drive Annie to the hospital. Cause it was like, all right, um, I'm basically just waiting to go on paternity leave at this point. I'm waiting to like take Annie to the hospital. We had like the entire trip plan. We had like, I don't know, it felt like we were ready, but it still was like a certain nervousness just because it was our first kid.

3:21 Like who knows what could happen. You also don't know when to even expect the baby. Like I feel like I was ready to have the baby at like 38 weeks and then the baby didn't come until 41 weeks and you're around 40 weeks. You're just like, okay, is the baby coming? Like, is something wrong with me? Like, why isn't there any movement? Like, I don't feel anything. Yeah. And like, what was hilarious is that we actually went to the hospital the first time and they sent us back because they're like, they're like, yeah, you're not actually dilated enough.

3:50 Like you have to go back home. Okay. So I think that I have like very high pain tolerance because every time I go to a dentist, like I sometimes can have them like, you know, drill holes in my teeth without even any freezing. But freezing for all the Americans out there basically means getting your mouth numbed. Oh, okay. Yes. Um, and so, uh, so I was telling Frank the whole time, like, I'm not going to get an epidural. Like, I'm not, I'm just going to have this baby, like the old fashioned way, like no help whatsoever.

4:21 And then as soon as like the cramps started coming on, I was just like, I can't handle this. Like definitely getting an epidural. So like the first time we went to the hospital and he's like, oh my God, this is so much pain. Like the baby's coming. We go to the hospital and basically we're there for like eight hours and the nurses are like, yeah, you're not having this baby. You need to go back home. Like you're not even close. And he's like, oh my God. I was like dilated like one centimeter or something and you need it to be 10 centimeters.

4:48 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they had Annie like walking around the hospital and stuff and basically to see if like she would dilate any more. And basically. I did not. It did not move at all. Yeah, so we go back home and basically it's like a false alarm later on. So like you have you hear the stories like, oh, your water breaks and that's when you know it's ready. Like Annie's water actually never broke. Yeah, it's actually a myth. Not a myth. Like but a very small percentage of the people have their water break actually like 10% or something really ridiculous.

5:21 Like it's not liking the movies. Yeah, so like the next time we went basically the nurses and doctors are like do not come back until the pain is like an 11 out of 10. Like it's absolutely unbearable. And like basically every night Annie would get these terrible cramps because our kid is essentially he's like kind of upside down and he's like kicking the back of her spine. Yeah. And so I have to like push against her back and like every couple hours she'll wake me up be like, oh my God, I'm in so much pain.

5:51 Get up. No, not even every couple hours, like every 10 minutes once I started like having the contractions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was like so neither of us were getting good sleep. And then luckily for me, Annie's parents, I think the last. My mom was already here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like in anticipation. Okay, I got to tell the story. Basically at this point, Frank is already very exhausted. But then he was like, yeah, babe, just I'm going to go to sleep now. But whenever you feel pain, just wake me up. I was like, okay.

6:20 And if you're really tired, like I'll just go to my mom and she can like take over for half of the night. He was like, okay. And then, and then I like, whenever the next time I felt pain, I was like, hey, Frank, do you want to press on my back again? And he's like, just go to your mom. I mean, it's slight detail changes, but that's roughly what happened. And so the second time they actually let us stay in the hospital, the first time I think they still charge us like $500 or something. Yeah. Like they charge you, it's ridiculous.

6:52 Like obviously we covered a lot of it through insurance, but it was still like, if we had no insurance, this baby was going to cost us like $50,000. Okay. Yeah. To give you an example of what it's like to have no insurance in China. So like when my mom went back for vacation one time and like right as she left, she twisted her ankle. And it was like a pretty bad sprain to the point where she eventually needed surgery for it. And so in China, they had her own private room with a bed and nurse and everything for two weeks.

7:25 And guess how much it cost? $400 USD with no insurance. Yeah. That's great. And so like, if you think about how much that would cost here in like the States. You would like go into debt forever for the rest of your life. You would be, yeah. Without insurance, you'd be absolutely destroyed. Yeah. So it's kind of crazy to see that like most other countries are more sane in the sense that like they're not going to completely destroy your finances if you get sick and you need a hospital bed. Won't really go into that tangent about how the U.S. healthcare system is completely screwed up.

7:57 Canada obviously has universal healthcare, has its own issues, but is obviously a much better system. Yeah. But I guess we can also highlight some of those differences as we kind of continue talking about our stay. Yeah. So we're now in the hospital. Luckily, we did get a private room. Annie's parents are here or is it just your mom or both? No, my dad kind of, my dad made it like on the night that we were, I was giving birth. Oh, okay. So he came later. Yeah. He came later. Yeah. And this room, like it was clearly not meant for multiple people to be in there with the wife.

8:33 Like there's one seat that reclined kind of into a bed and the room was frigging freezing. Like, I don't know why they turned down the temperatures so low. Like we were all freezing in there and they gave us like these thin blankets and like, I think eventually, I don't even know how your parents slept. But like the food they gave us was basically non-existent. They had like this kind of lunch break room where you could pay for food, but it was all overpriced and like crappy hospital food. I feel like I was just immersing pain.

9:00 Well, like Annie, they didn't let her eat because she got an epidural. So basically after that, she couldn't eat. And like after she got the epidural, she was fine. Like prior to it, she was in a ton of pain. Yeah. But after it, she was able to like sleep and be okay. Yeah, I was sleeping. Yeah. But like the rest of us, we were just like extremely uncomfortable because like even though we were allowed to be in the room with her, this was pre-COVID, pre all the craziness. It was such a small area. Small room.

9:28 Maybe this big. And the three of you had to like fit in there. And the five guys we got was actually terrible because it was like kind of cold and soggy by the time we ate it. But it was still like better than any of the hospital food by far. Yeah. Which the hospital food actually got better after you gave birth, but that's kind of. Yeah. I mean, like they charge you for it and everything. So, yeah. But like the kind of one thing that stood out to me was how stressed the nurses were. Like clearly they were overworked and understaffed.

9:57 Yeah. And they were like snapping at each other, blaming other departments for all the like the smallest things. Yeah. And like it made us stressed as well because like this is our first birth. We don't really know what to expect. Right. So at this point, I've already been into labor for 72 hours. I was even telling Frank like at this point, I just want a C-section. Like I don't want to go through this anymore. It was so painful. I just, I would rather they gave me some drugs and just cut me open. Like that was going to be easier than whatever labor was.

10:25 And, but then, you know, I went through with it and then got the epidural and it finally felt a lot better. And then the nurses come and then they're supposed to like, you know, connect me up to an IV. And the nurse tried four times and she missed my veins and they, she legally could not perform on me anymore. So she had to leave and get another nurse. And I was just kind of like, Jesus, like who is treating me? Like they can't even put an IV in me properly. Like who is this nurse? And there are complications.

10:55 So like our kid, every time Annie tries to push, his heartbeat will slow down because the umbilical cord is wrapped around his neck. And so we're in like a pretty dangerous spot. We're like, what the hell? Like, what do we do? Right. Because the kid, as he's going down and it's like, his heartbeat is dropping. They're like, oh, oh shit. Like, stop doing what you're doing. Let's, let's try to like figure out what to do. Eventually when actually, when Annie actually gave birth, the doctor was actually pretty skilled and what she did.

11:22 Yeah, she was a good doctor. She like, but it was very violent. She like grabbed his head, like yanked him out so hard that he had like bruises on his head when he was born. And she like quickly unwrapped the umbilical cord from his neck. And then like, what they don't tell you is like, the baby had like all this poop and pee and just like, it looks like this little purple alien. It's like a little Thanos. And it was so gross. Yeah, like Frank's face. You were just standing next to me and he was like.

11:57 But like, clearly she was super skilled and like, you know, unwrapped it from his neck. Got this like little suction cup suction. I was like poop and pee from his mouth. And then they're handing him to me and he just poops all over me. Like he's pooping as they were handing him to me. But luckily, you know, he was healthy. There were no other complications, really. He was crying, which is a good sign. If your baby's not crying, that's usually extremely worrying because that's, it's like, maybe that's a sign something's wrong.

12:28 But our kid came out pretty healthy. We had like no idea how to really feed him at first. And so like, you're supposed to try to breastfeed him. And it's like, your milk doesn't come immediately. It like comes gradually. And so like, Annie's trying to breastfeed our kid for like hours and hours and hours. And she's like, okay, he must be full now, right? Because like. Yeah, not hours, hours. I'd be like, I have him on my breast for like five minutes. I'm like, ah, he's good. And then I would hand him back. But he just keeps on crying.

12:57 I'm like, what's wrong with him? I literally just fed him. And basically it's because he's not getting any food at all. It's basically like starving. And he's like, babies lose a ton of their body weight in the first couple of days because the milk hasn't come in. And eventually they fed him a bottle just to like calm him down. And also so like he would get some sort of nutrition. We were also inexperienced. Like we didn't understand how the latching worked or anything. Well, like no one kind of tells you how long you're supposed to have the baby on the breast for.

13:28 And like, I feel like my mom didn't tell me either. And the nurses were like kind of forceful. They were like, take our kid's head and like shove it against Annie's breast and be like, eat. Latch on. And I'm like, dude, chill. Like what is going on? There's a nursery that they can actually take your baby away for the night and basically help you take care of the baby while you guys get some sleep. So initially Frank and I definitely did not want to do that. But then by the third day we were like, okay, we really need to take advantage of this.

13:58 So we sent him away. And then they were supposed to bring the baby back to you for a feed around like 2 a.m. And when they brought him back, he was just out. He like was not crying. And I was freaking out because like we were used to him just crying the whole time. Constantly. And we were thinking like, what happened? Did they drug our baby? Yeah. But no, they just fed him. No. Well, they said they didn't feed him. They said if. Yeah, but we, we think that they did feed him. Yeah, we think that they did. He was probably crying so much that they were like, we're just going to give him whatever.

14:29 I mean, it's like, it makes sense that he was crying because it's like, oh, he was born. It's been like two days. He's gotten like zero food. And so it's, there was actually a baby next door to us that was crying even more hysterically. And like, even though our kid was crying pretty much all the time, their kid was like absolutely screaming. Right. And just like, sounded like they were, I don't know. Yeah. We thought we were pretty lucky already because he didn't. Oh, also for the first day, like the first night, the baby's usually really good because they're still used to like being in the womb and just sleeping most of the time.

15:02 And on the second day is when they start to like realize that they're like in this new environment. And that's when they start to cry a lot more. So like the second day is probably the hardest. And they're also starving at that point. Starving, dehydrated. Yeah. And oh, so a lot of Asian babies have a problem with jaundice or potential problem. And it's basically like this yellowing of the skin. It has to do with their metabolism. And basically it's like, after you start feeding them, it goes away as their like natural system flushes it out.

15:32 However, what ended up happening is when that happens and like when they tested him for it, he was kind of borderline again. He's like, they could have done it. They could have not. Obviously they recommend that you do do it. So they come out with this like blue light thing that's supposed to help. And it's like basically cooking your baby. It's like, it's so hot. It's putting him in like this little oven. And like, we didn't really understand how to like swaddle him correctly. So the nurse would come in and swaddle him, puts him in three layers and swaddle and puts this freaking oven blue light on him.

16:04 And he's like literally burning up. He's like being cooked. Yeah. This nurse didn't know what she was doing. Like other nurses were only swaddling him in like one blanket. And then this nurse came with like three. Yeah. Yeah. Probably because she's like, oh, I do this for everyone else because like other babies probably didn't have that blue light thing. But like eventually we leave the hospital. Everything's fine. We're like tired. The food was surprisingly decent. Yeah. So we got like a meal allowance. Frank's like favorite part.

16:29 The only like, yeah, the only really positive experience other than like the doctor being super skilled in the delivery. But the only other positive experience was like the food was okay. It was handled by this like third party contractor. And the nurses the entire time were just like talking down on them. Be like, oh, they suck. They like always get the orders wrong. They're not timely. Blah, blah, blah. And I was thinking like, this is fine. Like, I feel like one time we just didn't get our food for like hours.

16:55 And then, yeah, there was one meal that they were late. And the nurses were just like, yeah, I got to have a talking with them. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. But, I mean, we finally got to go home. I don't remember how long your mom stayed with us. I think my mom stayed for three weeks. And then we had him for about, oh, no, no. My mom came for three weeks. And then your parents came to visit right away. And then your dad and brothers left after a week. And then your mom stayed with us for six weeks. And then we had the baby to ourselves for like two weeks.

17:30 And then my mom came back. So, like, we had a ton of help. Yeah, we were super lucky. But even with the help, it still felt like we were dying. Because, like, essentially the baby in those first couple of months is, like, nonstop crying. And, like, you have to change their diaper essentially, like, every hour or so. Yeah. They're taking, like, 20-minute naps and then waking up crying. And you have to figure out, like, is the baby hungry? Does the baby need a diaper change? Is the baby crying for some other random reason?

17:57 Like, just is lonely or something. Like, there's so many things. You basically have this checklist of things you go down. And you have no time for anything. And not only do you have no time, but you're also extremely sleep-deprived and cranky. And so, like, without the help of our parents, like, we would have been absolutely destroyed. Yeah, I don't actually remember too much from, like, it just felt like a blur. Our first son was a really slow eater. So, like, I would have to have him on my breast for, like, 40 minutes for him to get a full meal.

18:27 But then if I put him down for another, like, 20 minutes, it's, like, time for him to eat again. So, it just felt like I was breastfeeding him constantly. In the beginning, Annie's milk didn't come in for a while because we just didn't understand how that process worked. And so, we had to supplement with bottles. And so, eventually, like Annie said, she got to the point where she was just so tired and, like, could not handle breastfeeding the entire time. She started pumping. And what would happen is then she could actually get, like, four hours of uninterrupted sleep.

18:57 And then we would basically take shifts. So, like, I would take the shift from, like, I don't know. 9 until 3 a.m. or something like that. Yeah, 9 p.m. until 3 a.m. And then, like, either my mom or your mom would take? No, I would take them from 3 a.m. until, like, 7. Oh, okay. And then our parents would take, like, that morning shift. Morning shift. Slash day shift. Like, yeah, from, like, then Frank slept from, like, 3 until, like, 12 the next day. And then I was usually up from, like, 3 until 7 and I would go back to sleep from, like, 7 to 12 kind of thing.

19:27 And then we would take over again. Yeah, eventually we got into, like, an okay system where, like, we were all tired, but it was bearable. And it just kind of slowly got better from that point. We obviously were fighting a lot more even after the initial months because once the parents left and it's like, okay, now we have to juggle our work and our chores and all the stuff we were doing before in addition to having a kid. And so, like, a common problem that occurs after you have your first kid is that each person thinks that they're doing more than the other.

20:02 And that's actually not true. It's just because each person is both doing more than they previously were. And so it feels like, oh, well, like, why is my partner not picking up the slack? But in actuality, like, there's just more work to go around. And so even though you're each doing more, it feels like, oh, the other person is slacking. Like, how come I'm doing all this extra stuff? Like, they're not picking up their end of the bargain or whatever. And eventually, like, we kind of figured that out just through talking it out.

20:28 And we also optimized a lot of our lives. So, like, we started only using paper plates because essentially, like, we wouldn't have time to, like, clean up after ourselves. It just made the whole process a lot easier. At the time, we were living in a condo. So, we could just throw all of our stuff away after a meal. That helped a lot. And then once the baby turned six months, we got a nanny for, like, a very short brief of time. It got easier also because the baby got a little bit older as time went. He actually loved our nanny.

20:58 So, like, we would be working at home or actually, it was, like, pre-COVID, I was still going. We would both commute to work sometimes. And so, the nanny would come in the morning, take the kid from, like, I don't know, seven till four every day. And I would have to, like, rush home from work to relieve the nanny, take the kid, and then basically take care of the kid by myself until Annie came home because she commuted to the city. Yeah, yeah. Annie had, like, an insane commute. Yeah, I would have to get up at 5 a.m. and then commute for two and a half hours, go to work, and then come back at, like, six.

21:32 But I only did this, like, three times a week. So, then the other two days, I was, like, I was home. And so, essentially, it was, like, the days that Annie did commute, though, like, I would be dead on those days. Yeah, like, I would come home, and Frank is just, like.

21:48 Yeah, I get this, like, I go to work, I come back from work, like, I have a rush to come back from work, and then I'm, like, taking care of this screaming child for, like, two hours by myself. And then I'm, like, oh, my God, I'm just, like, dying right now. It got to the point where our kid would be so happy to see the nanny, because she was spending so much time with him. And, like, he would sleep a lot of the night, and so, essentially, it's, like, his best hours, most of the daytime, he would spend with the nanny.

22:14 And we were both thinking, like, man, what is this, like? Yeah, every time she would come, he would just have this biggest smile on his face and start crawling over to her. And, I don't know, definitely a little bit of, like, jealousy from us. Yeah, and then COVID kind of hit. No one really knew what was going on. Both of our workplaces went remote. We let our nanny go just because she's exposed to all sorts of people. And at that time, we were, like, okay, we just want to be extra safe. Like, we don't want anything that potentially happened to our kid.

22:41 We don't want to get COVID. And so, at this point, we're working from home. We're both working slash taking care of the kid, and we'll be, like, having meetings with our kid. Yeah, that was stressful because, like, it's crazy, like, when you have to entertain your kid and, like, bounce him while you're, like, trying to have an intelligent conversation with people at work. It's, like, after, like, a 30-minute meeting, you're just completely exhausted. It's actually crazy. So, like, we were, like, that's not sustainable at all.

23:14 And what also happened is, like, we were originally planning to send him to daycare at six months. But, of course, when COVID hit, a lot of daycares actually closed down. And so, we couldn't send him anymore. And then, even before that point, it's, like, daycares were extremely in demand. And so, if you even wanted to get in, you had to, like, apply many months in beforehand and, like, do all this sort of prep and stuff. And then, so, we're basically, like, trying to juggle work, home, our relationship.

23:42 Another thing that, like, people kind of talk about, it's, like, before you have a kid, all your time is your own. After work, if you want to play video games for eight hours, you can do that. If we wanted to, like, go out and eat a meal in a place that's two hours away, we're free to do that. If we want to just, like, do nothing and chill, like, maybe watch a movie or TV or whatever, you know, you're free to do that. But once you have a kid, it's, like, all of that free time goes out the window. Like, the one regret that I do kind of have that I wish that we did before having children was really take, like, a world trip.

24:15 Because now it's way harder to do that with kids. Like, they have a bunch of equipment, essentially, that they need in order to not be extremely frustrated. And so, it's, like, I guess it almost wouldn't have worked out because, like, when COVID hit anyway, a bunch of countries started closing down. And, like, we wouldn't have been able to travel everywhere that we wanted to anyways. But it's, like, yeah, I think the thing that gets talked about sometimes, it's, like, you really have to make sure that, like, you understand what you're getting yourself into.

24:48 Yeah. Like, I feel like when I, like, I really wanted to have a kid right away just because, like, I had, like, baby fever. And we had talked about it before having this kid. And you were kind of like, oh, I prefer to wait. But then you didn't really, like, put your foot down or anything like that. So, then I was just kind of like, oh, yeah, we're just going to have a kid. And I felt like if we just, like, really understood what it meant to have a kid. Like, I think before I just assumed that I can do all the same things that I could do before just with a kid now.

25:19 But, like, that's not really true. Yeah. And, like, another thing that doesn't really get talked about is a thing called postpartum depression. Where, like, after the woman has a kid, she, like, gets super sad, essentially. And you can talk more about that. Actually, I didn't really experience it because we had a ton of help from our parents. And then Frank took paternity leave. And he was just also very helpful around the house. So, I think I cried one time over spilt milk. Where, like, because our kid ate so much, like, I wasn't able to keep up with his demand.

25:52 And so, when I, like, there was one time where I pumped and then it spilt. I just, like, got so emotional. And if you think about it, it's pretty ridiculous. Like, oh, it's just milk. Like, you can't have formula or something. But, like, you're so emotional for no reason that I just, like, I just felt like my world was going to end. And that's an example of, like, what postpartum depression might look like or feel like. But I would say that I was lucky to not have experienced too much of it. Yeah, I think what really, the key point that Annie mentioned is, like, we had a lot of help and I also had pat leave.

26:25 So, like, a lot of women who go through it is because they don't have a lot of help. Like, you're expected to have the kid and essentially bounce back super quickly. So, now, not only do you have, like, a kid to take care of, but maybe you're a lot more isolated from your friends because now you don't have any free time. And also, you might have lost a career. Like, you can't work anymore. And your entire identity shifts from, okay, before I might have been, like, a wife or independent person with all these hobbies.

26:51 I might have had this career. To now completely different to, okay, now I'm a house care taker. I'm a child provider. I'm a mother. And that shift can be really difficult if you don't have a lot of support from family and friends. If you're, like, going through that alone is one of the causes. And then, like Annie said, like, crying over nothing. Like, there's a lot of hormonal stuff that happens that's, like, I'm not qualified to talk about. But it's not just, like, the woman being crazy. Like, there's a lot of changes happening in the body, a lot of hormones affecting your mood.

27:25 And also, like, you're basically putting yourself for this, like, out for this baby. You're doing everything you can for this baby. And the baby is not appreciative of you at all. Like, especially when they, around six months, they start growing teeth and they start biting you. Like, I get so pissed off when they bite me. I'm just like, goddammit. And then they will, like, look at you and be like, ha, ha, ha, ha. Like, it's the funniest thing ever. Yeah, and all of this is really amplified by the sleep deprivation.

27:53 Like, it's, like, during the night, the baby's going to get up minimum X number of times. And so, you're not going to have, like, a full night's rest. And then you have to work the next day. And then there's, like, not really a break anywhere in there. Oh, I would say that the other thing that we were really lucky with is, like, we sleep trained our kid very early. Super early. Like, he was able to sleep in his own room at three months. So, we were able to sleep full nights once he turned three months. I think that's another reason why our, like, our lives became so much easier later on.

28:27 But we have friends who, like, they co-slept with their baby until they were, like, two. Co-sleeping basically just means that the kid will sleep in the same bed with you. Same bed. And, like, they would either sleep, like, sleep apart from their husband for a full year or two and with the baby alone. And then they might have their own careers and they have to work the next day but be expected to, like, take care of the baby at night. I just think, like, that's a lot. And I personally would not be able to do that.

28:56 Like, I would go crazy. So, a really funny story about sleep training the kid. So, when sleep training, there's a bunch of methods to do it. But essentially what happens is your kid cries a ton. And they cry hysterically. They cry at the top of their lungs. And our walls are pretty thin. And so, like, as we were trying to sleep train the kid, someone actually knocked on our door. Like, hey, is everything okay in there? Like, because our kid would just be literally non-stop screaming for, like, an hour. Yeah.

29:27 And to the point where his voice got, like, hoarse. Yeah. There's also, like, something that people don't talk about that happens is a thing called sleep regressions. So, even after you, you know, quote-unquote sleep train your kid, they're sleeping through the night, it's not consistent. Like, it doesn't just stay that way. Right. Like, so our – I won't reveal how old exactly our kid is. But basically, like, even to this day, he will still have sleep regressions to the point where, like, he won't want to – he will wake up during the night crying for X, Y, Z reasons.

29:56 Like, there's normal development stages that they hit in their, like, mental capabilities. And it's a natural process, which – I don't know if people talk about this in, like, the whole parent circle. I didn't really know about any of it before we lived through it. But it's, like, completely normal. But it's also extremely, like, damaging to your mental health because it's, like, oh, my God, we just put in all that effort. We thought we were, like, finally getting back to some semblance of normal. And then it's, like, nope, JK, like, get wrecked.

30:22 You're not going to go to sleep anymore. And then, like, some people might be, like, oh, he's just going through a sleep regression. Like, let me go off my schedule for the next couple weeks. But, like, what you're really supposed to do is you're supposed to maintain consistency. You can kind of give in once in a while but, like, mostly still have a schedule. And then eventually he'll just, like, go back to it on his own. The most hilarious sleep regression was when he first learned how to stand up. Oh, yeah.

30:51 He learned how to stand up but he didn't know how to sit down. And so what would happen is he would go to sleep and then sometimes he would wake up in the night and just instinctively stand up in his crib. But he'd be too scared to sit back down and go to sleep. So what he would do, he would run circles around his crib. I should, like, find that footage. Yeah, like, holding onto the sides of the crib until he got so tired. He collapsed from exhaustion, fell asleep because it's, like, a kind of dramatic collapse.

31:20 It would wake him up, which he would stand up again and be unable to get down and then repeat the process until he was so tired that he would just, like, sleep and then not get back up anymore. Yeah. I would say, like, this is only specific to this baby. The first kid, yeah. Yeah. I think most babies are not like this. But our first baby is such a scaredy cat. Like, he's scared to, like, he thinks, like, oh, man, that is too high. I cannot, I cannot sit down safely. But, like, our second baby is, like, as soon as he learned how to stand up, he also knew how to sit down.

31:51 Yeah. Yeah. Like, the two kids have extremely different personalities. Like, they've inherited a mix of our qualities. And, you know, obviously, they have some of their own as well. And, like, the one thing that at least I kind of learned about myself, and a lot of people notice it at work as well. If people know me, they know I kind of have a fiery personality. I love to argue. I love to get into arguments. I love to debate people on pretty much anything. And, you know, I call people out for their BS, even at work.

32:23 But then people did notice that once I came back from the first paternity leave, I became a lot more chill, a lot more understanding. A lot of that was probably due to my own sleep deprivation. Like, I just didn't have the energy to fight everyone on their BS anymore. And people were like, oh, my God, Frank, you've changed so much. Like, you're more patient, blah, blah, blah. And I was thinking, like, huh. Well, maybe I changed, I guess. But, like, to be a bit more serious, I think that, like, I'm definitely way more patient now than I was before.

32:50 Yeah, I think so. Like, you're also, like, more understanding, I think. Yeah. I think that has more to do with being with Annie than the kids. Like, in the past, I would say, I don't know, six years ago, I was not a very empathetic person. I would think a certain way and try to also think, like, well, everyone should think about it this way. It's, like, very logical. It's, quote, unquote, correct. Like, it doesn't make sense. If people don't do it this way, like, they're wrong. And, like, it doesn't make sense why they would do it their own way.

33:23 Rather than thinking about it in the sense of, like, well, everyone has their own situation. People have different mental models of how the world works. You know, Annie is much more empathetic, much more people-oriented. Whereas I'm probably more, like, logical, idea-oriented, like, conceptual. And, like, when you combine multiple ways of thinking and multiple perspectives, you get closer to, like, the truth or the, like, actual what happened of a scenario or problem or issue that you're trying to solve.

33:52 And I think that's one thing that, in terms of my own personal growth, I've realized over the past couple of years. It's, like, there is no perfect answer for most things in life. Like, a lot of things are a shade of gray. People like to look at things in black and white because it's easy to conceptualize and bucket things. It's just simple to simplify the world in that way. You shouldn't write someone off just because they share a different belief from you. Like, I think a lot of people, especially online, like, they don't want to use their higher order level thinking skills.

34:22 They don't want to actually conceptualize, like, well, how can my position be wrong? They just immediately jump to, like, oh, well, this person has this specific belief and they're wrong and, you know, everything about their character is wrong. I can't support them. Like, they're a bad person just because they don't share this belief or something. You'll see a lot of people on the right and the left hate each other simply for being with the other party. And that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Like, at the end of the day, we're all people.

34:49 We're all going to have our own specific beliefs and personal experiences that shaped or molded our personalities. I understand how a lot of people reach that point. And I also understand how easy it is to really relinquish your critical thinking skills and just kind of go along with what everyone else thinks. It's kind of just normal as people, as social creatures. But I think that's really one of the things I want to teach my kids is, like, don't just take the popular narrative and adopt it as your own.

35:15 Like, really try to form your own mental models and figure out what makes sense for you as a person. Because it's, like, not only do you do yourself a disservice, but, like, society in aggregate is just individuals that form groups that eventually forms opinions that become societal standards. And if everyone starts to relinquish their own, like, well, how do I determine what's right or wrong? How do I, like, show empathy for my fellow man? Like, clearly society is going to degrade. None of us want that, right?

35:48 I guess to get the storyline a bit more on track, I mean, the second pregnancy went a lot more smoothly. At this point, we were in Canada. We pretty much decided we were going to have the kid in Canada for a variety of reasons. And it was much more, it was a much more pleasant experience overall. The doctors and nurses were more chill. We were more chill. We were more chill, yeah. So the first pregnancy, though, every single day I would be Googling, like, stillbirth. Like, what happens if, like, my kid dies?

36:21 Like, you know, I was very paranoid, especially because I had the miscarriage first. So then I was like, what if I was incapable of actually giving birth to a healthy child? But the second time around, you're just a lot more chill about everything. We just did normal things as normal. I was, I had a much more, like, healthy relationship with food as well. Like, the first pregnancy, I didn't gain a ton of weight, but I gained, like, 35 pounds. And it was like, I felt like, oh, I could eat just because I'm pregnant.

36:51 It's okay if I gain a whole bunch of weight. But it's, like, really hard to lose that weight. So then the second time around, I was just like, let me just, you know, practice intuitive eating. Like, not go overboard with this. To clarify, intuitive eating basically just means eating until you're satiated and listening to your body, essentially. Right, yeah. And then I also didn't have any acne the second time around. I did think that it was a girl, though. Like, I thought it was a girl because I didn't have acne.

37:20 Like, a lot of the reactions were, like, the symptoms for my body were very different from my first pregnancy. So I thought it must be a girl. Also, I just really wanted a girl. And then even after we got the, like, gender reveal note from the doctor and it said it was a boy, I still firmly believe that there's a chance that they could be wrong. And that even until the day that I gave birth, I was just like, it's still possible that it's a girl. Yeah. The second time around when the kid came out, he was perfectly healthy.

37:49 He didn't cry. Yeah. He didn't really cry, which was strange. But it turns out he's just, like, a very different, very different personality from the first kid. Cried way less. Much higher pain tolerance, even to this day. Yeah. He, like, when the doctor handed him over, he just, like, lied in my arms and just looked at me with a smile on his face. Like, peacefully. Smiled way more. Smiled way more. He could already put himself to sleep, like, two weeks after we came back from the hospital. I feel like, like Annie said, we were just way more relaxed the second time around because we weren't worried about our child randomly passing away from any random thing.

38:33 Like, we were Googling so many things. Anytime even something slightly out of the ordinary with our first kids would be like, oh, my God, is something wrong? Do we have to take him to the hospital? Right. We would, like, freak out. Annie wanted to get, like, this weird sock thing that monitor is vitals. Oh, yeah. It was called the Owlette monitor or something where they send you an alarm if the, like, baby doesn't have a heartbeat anymore or something. Yeah. I'm really glad we didn't get that thing. Yeah. Because apparently it's a scam.

38:58 Yeah. I don't know if it's a scam or not, but it's, like, they're clearly preying on your fears of, like, oh, your kid's going to die. You need to buy our thing or, you know, you're not going to have accurate monitoring of his vitals. But clearly, like, both our kids are happy. They're healthy. Oh, also the second time I really knew, I understood how to breastfeed him. Yeah. So I kept him on my breast almost the entire time. Like, every time he cried, I just put him back on my breast. And I would just, like, sleep or sit there with him, like, all the time.

39:29 I didn't mind. I had a lot more patience for him this time, too. Like, the first time I was just like, it's been five minutes. What are you doing? And then, so he gained so much weight. So typically, babies will lose weight the first couple days. He gained weight. He was very healthy. And the doctors was all very surprised. Yeah. So, like, this time around, we actually had experience. And our second kid was able to actually eat. And so he was all, that's another reason why he was probably way happier and, like, crying a lot less.

40:00 Yeah, that's true. A couple days because, like, he was actually being fed compared to the first kid who was literally starving. Just starving. Also, so they do come and draw blood from the baby. So, like, they'll take it from the heel, and they test for, like, jaundice and a few other ones. So, with our first kid, I remember, like, just being like, oh, Frank, do you feel sad that they're taking his blood? And he was like, no, it's good for him. And this time, Frank was just like, how dare they drop blood from my baby?

40:32 Yeah. And, oh, so a really interesting part. Like, when we had our first kid, what you see in movies and what you kind of hear about in stories is everyone's like, oh, you feel this overflowing amount of love for the kid. And when we saw the kid, we were just like, huh, this is weird. Yeah, both of us didn't feel any amount of love. Like, we're like, he doesn't look anything like us. Like, and Frank was like, if I didn't see you birth him, like, out, I wouldn't even know that this is my kid. Yeah, and I think it's like, you have a lot of expectations from the media.

41:00 It was like, you see people becoming a new parent, and, like, immediately you love the kid. But, like, the love kind of grows as you take care of them. And, like, once the second kid came, it's like we immediately felt a connection to him because we already built a lot of this connection with our first kid. And we understood kind of, I guess, more of what it was like to be a parent. Yeah. He also looked exactly like our first kid. So then it was, it reminded us of our first kid. So then we already felt that love towards our first kid.

41:30 So then it was like instant connection. Yeah. And that's something that people don't really tell you. But, like, when you first have a kid, it's going to be an extremely disgusting experience. It's going to be like a little purple alien coming out. And, yeah, maybe don't film it. Like. Yeah, don't film it. Yeah. So we did, like, my dad filmed it. Like, and I just refused to watch the footage because, like, it's probably not pleasant. Like, I just don't want to see myself in my worst possible state. The whole process of being a parent, the most enjoyable part, really, is seeing them grow and progress and gain new skills.

42:08 So we took an insane amount of video and pictures of our first kid just because, like, people don't tell you how quickly this time passes by. It seems like they're going to be young kids forever, but you actually don't have that many years before they start talking, before they start running around. Both of our kids are now walking around. One of them can pretty much ride a bike now. And he's starting to say some words. He, like, pretty much understands all of what we say. And so it's, like, if there's only one thing you take away from this entire podcast is that you should take more pictures and more videos of your kids.

42:46 And try to spend more time with them if you can. Yeah. Like, we're already starting to forget a lot of milestones and, like, when exactly something happened. And if we didn't have those pictures, we wouldn't even remember, like, what they looked like back then. Yeah, we don't retain a lot of information from, like, them growing up. And some, like, a lot of the times we would just, like, be in bed, like, before we go to sleep, we would pull out our phone and revisit some of the photos. And we don't remember most of the videos that we took.

43:13 And that's kind of crazy to me. One thing, which is kind of, like, a hot topic among parents is, like, screen time. I don't really believe that screen time is that bad for you. Like, when I grew up, I essentially taught myself English by watching ungodly amounts of TV. Like, I'm an immigrant. I immigrated to the U.S. from China when I was four. And I couldn't speak any English. And so, like, all I could really do was watch TV. And, like, I turned out fine. And I think people, all the people who are so against screen time are probably really old people who don't realize that, like, in the modern world, you can't get away from screens.

43:45 Like, what are you going to do? You're going to keep your child away from TV and computers and cell phones for forever? Like, it doesn't make any sense. Either that they're really old or they're young and they don't have kids. Or they're nowhere close to having kids. Because there's no parent that will tell you, don't give your kids screen time. Yeah, like, we try to be a lot more restricting of screen time originally. So we would try to make sure they would only have, like, maybe one hour max per day. And then it just kind of loosened up because, like, it actually helps their development a lot.

44:14 Like, it teaches them skills that they otherwise would not learn. So, like, our kid knows how to do, like, a bunch of yoga stretching and, like, karate moves and, like, jumping jacks and all this stuff that, like, they learn from watching TV. Yeah. Like, my son was just cleaning up the other day. Like, he moved a box from here into there. And then he just walked away being like, like, how did he learn that? Obviously, it's not good if all they're doing is watching TV. But, like, we take our kids out twice a day.

44:42 Yeah, twice a day. And they, like, they spend so much time outside that, like, their skin is darker than my skin. Like, it's like... Yeah, our older son, they also have different skin tones. So, like, the younger one's very similar to me. Like, he's very pale. And then our older son's, like, just naturally he gets tanned a lot. Well, it's more similar to me. If I spend a ton of time outdoors, like, I get really tan as well. And so, it's probably... But, like... Yeah. So, like, as soon as the weather became warm, like, he is, like, three shades darker already.

45:15 Yeah. But I think it's, like, a lot of people think that, like, oh, my God, screen time is absolutely terrible for you or whatever. I don't think that's true. Yeah. I mean, I think there's pros and cons. And people think that there's just... Only cons. They only think about cons. But I think right now for us, the pros are outweighing the cons. Yeah. It's, like, a lot of the time, you really don't have a choice. Because, like, if, say, for example, Annie or I are looking after both kids at the same time and we need to use the bathroom or something, it's, like, oh, I can take one kid.

45:43 But if our older kid can just sit there watching TV for a little bit or, like, we need to prepare food or we need to do laundry. Like, there's so many things that you have to, like, try to keep them safe at the same time. Like, you also have to be realistic with what you can actually achieve on your own. And I think they're actually more attached to the music in the TV show than the screen. Because they are completely fine if I just turn on YouTube on my phone, turn off the screen, and just have the music going.

46:12 Or they're okay with us turning on the TV. And, like, he'll just hop off the sofa and start, like, doing other stuff while the TV is in the background. So, like, they're not glued to the TV. Yeah, and so if you want to entertain your kids, you don't want to give them TV, just playing music is a great way. Like, even if they're in the back of the car and they're, like, fussing, if we just turn on kids' music, like, most of the time they'll calm down. I think a lot of times they're just bored, honestly.

46:40 Like, they want to be entertained.

46:44 But, yeah, I mean, in general, it's, like, parenthood, we're obviously still going through the journey. Our kids are very young. Everyone says these are the best years. Not just of the kids, but, like, of their entire lives. When older people are interviewed and they're asked, when were you the happiest? Most of them will respond, oh, it's when my kids were really young and I was taking care of them. Like, looking back, there are tons of happy moments. Like, there are lots of moments when you're obviously really tired, you're stressed, you're overwhelmed.

47:16 We're obviously in a very fortunate position to be able to look after our kids and stay home with them. And, like, I've actually been a lot more happy than, I mean, in general, I'm not a super happy person. Like, my baseline is probably a bit lower than most normal people. But in terms of, like, my general happy moments, I haven't experienced as many happy moments as I have now since, like, childhood, really. I also read about how, like, the millennial generation spends, fathers particularly, spend way more time with their kids than any other generation previously.

47:50 And so not only are kids seeing more of their parents, but they're seeing more of their parents from both genders. I think it's nowadays, I think before it was mostly the woman who was looking after the kids. So it's, like, the guy who would be working, who would focus on his career, focus on making money. And then the woman would kind of, like, become the caretaker, become the mom, essentially, of these kids and do everything. But now it's, like, much more accepted for guys to change diapers, guys to feed the kids, guys to, like, babysit the kids.

48:19 It's no longer purely just, like, oh, you know, it's mom's job. It's now it's, like, oh, it's both parents. Like, we can both do all these things. And it's, like, I guess not really surprising to me. Like, once you've been through it, before I had a kid, I thought, like, oh, it'll be so easy, right, for Annie to, like, be a stay-at-home mom. I'll just, like, continue working, making a bunch of money at whatever tech job. And, like, you know, Annie can take care of everything at home. And, like, some people at work, I got a glimpse of, like, people were saying, like, oh, no, like, I work full-time.

48:48 My wife is, like, full-time stay-at-home mom. And, like, I still need to help her out. Like, we still send them to stay care sometimes just, like, give her a break. And I was, like, huh, how does that make sense? Like, is it that hard? And, like, yes, it is that hard. Like, you can't really know how tiring it is to raise kids until you do it. Like, everything that we describe here is not going to do it justice. Like, you're not going to get the full experience of all the sleep deprivation, all the stress, all the worrying for your own kids until you have them.

49:17 Yeah, I think that's a really good point. I would say that when we had our first kid, I definitely had moments. Like, the first three months, I regretted having the kids so early. Oh, really? Yeah. Like, when people say, like, I can't imagine, like, my life without this kid. I'm like, I can't. I can't imagine my life without this kid. But then I, like, kind of got past that point. And, like, I don't think I regret having our kids at the age that we did. But I wish that we had actually taken a year to travel the world.

49:52 Yeah. I mean, the timing didn't really work out with, like, COVID and everything. And actually, having both of our kids earlier, I always thought was a better idea. Just because, like, the older you get, the more potential there is for health complications. And I don't know. I guess, like, I want to be young and have energy to actually hang out with my kids. I don't want to be, like, a super old dude. And by the time I'm, like, 60 or something, my kids are now just going off to college. But in terms of, like, if we're ever going to have another kid.

50:23 Annie wants another kid. She really wants a girl. I am against it for the fact that, first of all, we've already replaced ourselves. We've had two people. So two and two cancels out. But also, it's like, I think she's kind of forgotten how tough it was. I actually wanted Annie to go through a surrogacy, even for the second one. Because I just felt like pregnancy was really hard on her body. And, like, we had the option to do so. But she really wants to have, like, a natural pregnancy. I think, I guess my main concern is, like, about her health.

50:55 And then also, it's like, finances is also a question. Like, right now, we're doing pretty well with our two kids. But, like, adding another kid, then it's like, okay, maybe then I would have to start thinking about, like, how do I make some more money and go back to work. Yeah. But, yeah, basically, we're going to put it on pause. Like, it would be nice to have one, like, for me later on. But, like, at this current situation, I guess we're not going to have any. I think even if we were to have a third one, we would still wait a couple years.

51:25 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Parting thoughts, I guess. Parting thoughts. I will also say that people think that, like, once the babies are the cutest in their infant stages, or when they're a baby, but I've actually enjoyed hanging out with them as they got older, as they acquire more skills, and they just get cuter and cuter. And, like, you just love them more and more every day. Like, I didn't think it was possible to love them more every day. I love them more. And you're able to communicate with them. So, like, before, you'd have to guess a lot of the times at what's making them upset.

51:56 But now it's like they'll tell you. They'll be able to gesture. They'll be able to say it. And that's definitely another level. A lot of parents have said that it's because they're not teenagers yet. Like, once they reach that stage, they're going to be really hard to deal with. So, I mean, I guess we'll deal with it. Find out. Yeah. We'll find out. But, yeah. All right. Thanks, everyone, for listening to Episode 6 of the Frankly Speaking Podcast. We'll see you soon. Bye. Bye. Bye.